Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#471

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #193

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

IBM also did that for the Germans in WW2, perhaps it's better to stay politically neutral for companies? "without IBM's machinery, continuing upkeep and service, as well as the supply of punch cards, whether located on-site or off-site, Hitler's camps could have never managed the numbers they did." (This is the opinion of the writer of "IBM and the Holocaust" [0]) I bet Google is not looking forward to going down int…

[deleted]

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#472

Post by archerface » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #143

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

> all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII During WWII the US was freeing the world from oppression; now it's more seen as the oppressor. The side you're on is pretty important (as it was during WWII). This is even more true in the case of drone operations and so-called "AI" assisted actions, where operators sitting safely in air-conditioned facilities in the California desert can decide to remotel…

> The side you're on is pretty important

So, generally and from what I understand about US drone operations, these strikes target people like ISIS and other Islamic extremists. Following this, in a general sense, the sides are the US and terrorist religious extremists.

The way you frame your point makes it sound like your on one side or the other. If that is the case, I would much rather be on the side of the US than the extremest who murder people for arbitrary reasons.

If that is not the way you meant for it to be framed, please correct me.

> This is even more true in the case of drone operations and so-called "AI" assisted actions, where operators sitting safely in air-conditioned facilities in the California desert can decide to remotely kill people with no risk to themselves.

Why does the risk to the warfighter matter? Would you rather they send infantry to go and assault the target? Why wouldn't you want to minimize the risk to the soldiers in the field by using tech to hit a target rather than men on the ground?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#473

Post by citysurrounded » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #413

3131s wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fact, not a feeling. How many of the roughly 1 million people dead in the last 15 years of the "War of Terror" ever directly attacked the US or US citizens?

That’s the problem with preemptive strikes against individuals who aren’t part of a nation that declared war against you.. who’s t say they wouldn’t have attacked you? The metrics are inpossible, and the government is free to redefine people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time as probably guilty anyways.

Ever seen Psycho-Pass? It explores some of these notions in greater depth.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#474

Post by annabellish » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #358

annabellish wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the theory, yes, and to a point it's even true, but the US military is _not_ being used in this way. There is no challenger for "ultimate political power" within the US region. Their spending and investment is well beyond what is necessary to keep up with the "competition", of which there is effectively none. It is merely the continual expansion and growth of an already vastly overqualified force which hasn't…

There is no challenger for "ultimate political power" within the US region How quaint - "regions" don't exist with modern weapons. To say the US doesn't have to worry in it's "region" is laughably naive. Their spending and investment is well beyond what is necessary to keep up with the "competition" Also quaint. China is able to leapfrog decades and trillions of dollars of US spending on defense due to modern technol…

>It is literally being used every second of every day to project power and maintain stability around the globe (not to mention daily active engagements over Syria/Iraq/Afganistan etc.).

Yes, Syria, Iraq, and Afganistan are good examples of the exact opposite of that.

You're not wrong, _in theory_. A military is necessary. Maybe even a military as large as the current one is necessary. Maybe even a _larger_ military is necessary.

All of those things can be true, but these drones are not being built to dissuade China from breaking their policy of isolationism and attacking. The growth of the US military is not happening to "maintain stability".

The theory is sound, and the propaganda paints a good picture, but the reason why adding more power to that system is evil is not just because it's a military and militaries are somehow intrinsically wrong. It's because that military is being _used_ in evil ways.

Again, to make it super clear: The US needs a military, and it needs a big one. The idea that humanity could achieve peace by just losing all the militaries is nice, but unfounded. It is possible for all of these facts to be true, and yet for it not to be true that literally anything a military does is thus moral and just, yeah?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#475

Post by j2kun » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #434

j2kun wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to point out that men and women have different interests I was nodding until this. Even if you agree with Damore, you can't pretend his argument was "men and women simply have different interests."

I've read the memo and that was in fact his argument. What do you think his argument was?

I've read it many times, and I suggest you read it closer. Try applying that same skeptic mindset used to defend him to the opposite perspective.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#476

Post by archerface » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #112

Cookingboy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of agree actually. Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future. But for the first time in history we have the tools to conduct intense warfare yet limit collateral damages and minimize cost in both human and material resources. The engineers who worked on precision strike weapons/smart bombs should be applauded instead of ostracized, in the past we'd just carpet…

I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, you're correct about reduction of collateral damage. On the other hand, weapons of old were used as part of actual wars. Precise weaponry seems to be making it too easy to kill off people without starting a war - like the US is doing with its drone strikes - which means it'll happen more. Also, I fear that the limit of precision strike weapons is being able to swiftly kill…

> I fear that the limit of precision strike weapons is being able to swiftly kill an arbitrary target anywhere, for cheap - which opens the way for ethnic cleansing, killing off political opponents, people harboring thoughts inconvenient to powerful people, etc.

This a very good point. I agree with you. To prevent this requires people to be involved in our democracy. As a group, we need to elect people into office that have the proper moral and ethic values that empowers them to hold the military accountable for how they use these weapons. If this is the case, I believe that is would be EXTREMELY hard for the military to misuse these weapons.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#477

Post by archerface » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #378

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I think if we were currently fighting the 3rd Reich people might be more for it. But currently the USA has a massive military for no purpose, which is often used to conduct evil, and thus some people do not want to aid it.

> ... which is often used to conduct evil, ...

I am curious. In your eyes, what evil has the US military done?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#478

Post by nunya213 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #73

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I think the reason this is a problem is something you stated: Google brands itself as a global company. I’m an American and while I acknowledge the density of intelligent people that work at Google, the fact that they ostensibly have “global interests” makes me concerned that they could do this work safely. Please do not interpret that as some jingoistic platitude. That’s just...reality. While the “company” may be lo…

I can 100% guarantee that no one will be able to work on Maven without getting a TS/SCI clearance. The process of getting one entails a high level of scrutiny.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#479

Post by snarf21 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #431

snarf21 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we could spend our resources building systems that destroy drones instead of an arms race. I'm not saying there are easy answers but being defeatist is not my approach. I wonder what good we could do in this world if we really tried.

Not so much defeatist as it is being a realist about the threats facing you, and the world. Maybe we could spend our resources building systems that destroy drones instead of an arms race. That's just another ... weapon ;)

That's fair, it is a weapon. I would argue the difference is that this weapon prevents a 24/7 global police state, instead of enabling one. It will be very interesting to see what this looks like in the next 10 years. I personally already find the Chinese social credit system super scary and worry about an Orwellian life. As always, who will watch the watchers?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#480

Post by fsloth » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

ghein wrote: post #452

fsloth wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If your problem is with killing people, it should be with the people who ordered the killing and not the specific weapon that was used to carry out the killing." Drone strikes, as they are used, are a more evil way of taking out identified targets of other nationalities. I find the concept of a nation state summarily assassinating people a bit troubling, but drone strikes make it even worse by making it imprecise an…

Drones have the ability to be more precise than a typical forward air controller plus manned airplane as a drone can be above a target for much longer and that long duration video surveillance gives the opportunity to find the best time for a strike and to verify that it is the target. You claim that a person on the ground is going to get better identification but they need to be hidden rather far away so that they a…

Sorry, I was imprecise. I did not mean it would be better to use conventional aircraft. I meant to claim that it would be better to use a human with a gun to do the assassination - at least when operating in an area with potential for civilian casualties. Use of heavy ordnance in an area with civilians should have no excuses if there is the alternative to use human operators.

I don't care how far up the rank of Isis or Al Kaida the person targeted is. Risking civilian casualties should not be acceptable.

A combat in a war and an assassination are two different things - I was condidering an assassination which by nature should be fine grained.