Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months • Hacker News Board

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#71

Post by diafygi » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #69

diafygi wrote: post #13

I love how some of the tech industry is beginning to see data as a liability rather than an asset. It dramatically reduces the ability for government mass surveillance for two reasons: 1. If companies only collect what they need (to reduce their liability), governments can't demand more than that (or even hack in to get the data illegally). 2. If the industry culture is to limit data collection, governments can't jus…

Just to be contrarian: I’m not so sure if that’s a good thing... Data can be used for great things, e.g. longitudinal data in healthcare. I think seeing data as a liability might reduce the speed of progress

In the talk, there's a parallel drawn between the nuclear industry 60 years ago and big data now, where the nuclear was originally touted as a miracle cure for everything, then disasters happened, then it never really got over the stigma despite its huge potential.

Society decided, for now, the upsides aren't worth the downsides.

Oil is another parallel where society is currently just at the point where we are starting to not value the upsides over the downsides.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#72

Post by Operyl » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

confounded wrote: post #65

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really believe large Chinese tech companies will be complying with GDPR?

Are there any that do a lot of business in the EU that you’re thinking of? I can think of lots of hardware, but not many traditional consumer Internet companies. Maybe Ali Baba for SMEs?

Tencent to name one.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#73

Post by Scooty » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

diafygi wrote: post #71

baxtr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be contrarian: I’m not so sure if that’s a good thing... Data can be used for great things, e.g. longitudinal data in healthcare. I think seeing data as a liability might reduce the speed of progress

In the talk, there's a parallel drawn between the nuclear industry 60 years ago and big data now, where the nuclear was originally touted as a miracle cure for everything, then disasters happened, then it never really got over the stigma despite its huge potential. Society decided, for now, the upsides aren't worth the downsides. Oil is another parallel where society is currently just at the point where we are starti…

Seems like oil and nuclear energy are different because both can be replaced with alternative sources of energy. What are the alternative sources of user data?

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#74

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #60

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your proposed solution gives companies zero incentive to minimize data collected The expense of producing the data isn't supposed to be an incentive to minimize data collected, that is what the other sections are for. For large companies it wouldn't be regardless because they could automate the process. > and even incentivizes them to make fulfilling such a request as convoluted and expensive as possible. A company…

> A company charging outrageous prices would obviously invite investigative scrutiny. Outrageous? No, just the mere cost that really happens. Say, the data can only be accessed by the CEO personally. For privacy reasons, okay? Very reasonable, and totally in the spirit of the GDPR. It can only be accessed in a very secure server location in Norway. Also commendable. Our CEO needs to travel (first-class air travel) to…

> Say, the data can only be accessed by the CEO personally. For privacy reasons, okay? Very reasonable, and totally in the spirit of the GDPR.

Then the company has the same costs in making any use of the data, at which point they might as well not even collect it.

> Of course, this is an hypothetical, not-really-serious exaggeration. But it demonstrates the effect that would certainly happen on a much smaller scale.

But the scale makes all the difference. If they literally require the CEO to fly to Norway an stay in a hotel then it would add millions of dollars to the cost, but it's also manifestly unreasonable.

They can easily add some nominally unnecessary bureaucracy to the process that adds a few percent to the cost and get away with it, but that isn't really going to deter a lot of people.

The more they try to get away with, the more likely they make it that the regulators will crawl inside them and lay eggs. It's a losing trade off just so you can spite your own customers.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#75

Post by rhizome » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #69

diafygi wrote: post #13

I love how some of the tech industry is beginning to see data as a liability rather than an asset. It dramatically reduces the ability for government mass surveillance for two reasons: 1. If companies only collect what they need (to reduce their liability), governments can't demand more than that (or even hack in to get the data illegally). 2. If the industry culture is to limit data collection, governments can't jus…

Just to be contrarian: I’m not so sure if that’s a good thing... Data can be used for great things, e.g. longitudinal data in healthcare. I think seeing data as a liability might reduce the speed of progress

Data can be used for great things, e.g. longitudinal data in healthcare. I think seeing data as a liability might reduce the speed of progress

I think the word "can" is acting as a euphemism or term of elision here, since "longitudinal data in healthcare" includes things like the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#76

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #66

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your proposed solution gives companies zero incentive to minimize data collected The expense of producing the data isn't supposed to be an incentive to minimize data collected, that is what the other sections are for. For large companies it wouldn't be regardless because they could automate the process. > and even incentivizes them to make fulfilling such a request as convoluted and expensive as possible. A company…

45 C.F.R. § 164.524 (c)(4) requires medical providers to make our records available to you upon request, for a reasonable fee to reflect their cost of preparing it. “Fees. If the individual requests a copy of the protected health information or agrees to a summary or explanation of such information, the covered entity may impose a reasonable, cost-based fee, provided that the fee includes only the cost of: (i) Labor…

> Despite this language, actual costs for getting medical records varies widely. “Fees range very widely, from $2-55 for short records of 15 pages to $15-585 for long ones of 500 pages. Times also range widely, from 1–30 days (or longer for off-site records)” from a survey study on the topic.

All of those numbers are in line with the actual costs of producing information like that. The problem scenario is the one where the company claims everything costs a zillion dollars just so they don't have to provide the information at all, which the rules appear to be successfully preventing from happening.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#77

Post by d2wa » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

phicoh wrote: post #42

d2wa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, this is something that should be fixed in Privacy Badger. They can detect the URL parameter that flips ads from personalized to non-personalized (npa=1) and block accordingly. https://github.com/EFForg/privacybadger/issues/2046

That doesn't make any sense. The point of privacy badger is to prevent cookies that track you across different domains. Allowing tracking cookies just because a certain parameter is present is asking for abuse. If you are serious about not tracking people, don't use tracking cookies.

Cookies is just a tool it all comes down to how you use it. Not all knifes are stabbing-people-to-death knifes.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#78

Post by d2wa » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

oblong wrote: post #68

> install the company’s browser extension which collects their browsing history Yeah I think I'll pass thanks. What person would install such a thing?

Well, … people choose to install and use Google Chrome … It all comes down to who you trust with your data.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#79

Post by oblong » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 10:14 PM UTC

d2wa wrote: post #78

oblong wrote: post #68

> install the company’s browser extension which collects their browsing history Yeah I think I'll pass thanks. What person would install such a thing?

Well, … people choose to install and use Google Chrome … It all comes down to who you trust with your data.

It's hard to use the internet or live without a web browser, I suspect most people get along just fine without letting a startup with a cool name scrape their browsing history.

Re: Flattr now deletes your web browsing history within 3 months

#80

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #61

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "cost of producing the data" seems really hard to strictly define. What's stopping a company from implementing extremely tedious procedures and billing $100 an hour to discourage people from requesting it? Government agencies have been known to do this when they don't want to release FIOA information. Then they get sued over it by the ACLU or similar. > In addition, GPDR says that getting access to data on you is a…

access to data on you is a right Freedom of the press isn't a right Hence the classic liberal difference between rights to something and freedom to do something

By this definition all of the usual "rights" are really freedoms. Which leaves me waiting for an explanation of why accessing data a third party has on you should be elevated above the freedom of speech, travel, association and so on as something private parties should be required to do for all comers without compensation.