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Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

economist.com

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Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t this just a statement that you disagree either with the relative probability of an AI-related disaster or the relative degree of harm it could cause? It seems harsh to say it’s “morally repugnant” when in the end you’re just saying the way you assign probabilities and degrees of negative outcomes would lead you to invest in a different portfolio of charities or efforts than what this other group would do. (I’m…

IMO, the problem with AI risk funding isn't that it is 'wrong', per se. Instead it is that it is very speculative and not grounder in real world data, or measurable benefits that can be achieved TODAY. The whole point of effective altruism is to be very ground in evidence based causes. IE, if I spend 10K on this cause, then it will definitely save X lived by next year. AI risks can't be reduced to these kinds of numb…

I would say they can be reduced to numbers like that today, it's just that the implied error bars around the numbers would be huge.

Then in the optimization problem of determining what to invest donations into, the amount of gain from putting money into AI research would be correspondingly penalized by the amount of uncertainty (this is known as mean-variance optimization).

It's very much like a choice to invest in a solid, fundamental company which you know will give you 5% return next quarter, or invest in a very uncertain start-up which might give you 1000% return next quarter or might give you -50%.

The start-up investment might have a higher expected value, but also a much higher risk. At that point, the way to distinguish between whether you prefer to invest in the "sure bet" company or the "risky and ambiguous" start-up would be down to your personal tolerance for risk.

It could be perfectly rational to invest in the start-up in that situation. If you personally have a high risk tolerance. If you don't, then the start-up would look like a crazy, speculative bet with huge downside.

So some people might look at AI and say, "We don't have a good idea what the capabilities will be in ~50 years. So there is a huge risk that my charity donations will be wasted because in 50 years we realize we never needed to worry about this problem. Or we might use current AI research to thwart an unimaginable global crisis."

That person then looks into various sources of thought on putting actual numbers and actual error bars, the best we can, onto the problem, say by reading the Global Catastrophic Risk book, or stuff by Bostrom, or consulting surveys of current practitioners' estimates.

At the end of that process, it could totally end up being the rational course of action for that person to still invest in AI charities. Yes, their estimate for the expected value of the donation might have huge error bars around it, but under their particular beliefs about risk-return trade-offs, that might not cause their optimized decision to change.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Make-A-Wish Foundation is mostly useless. People have a moral obligation to set aside their feelings in order to do the right thing. Giving to the Make-A-Wish Foundation is motivated mostly by a desire to feel good. If you want me to stop saying that, prove me wrong. Calling me mean isn't an argument. If what I say makes people feel bad, the solution isn't to start lying to make them feel better.

> Giving to the Make-A-Wish Foundation is motivated mostly by a desire to feel good. Me spending $40 to go out to dinner with my wife is motivated by a desire to feel good. Should I instead "set aside my feelings" and spend that on your list of approved charities "in order to do the right thing"? Have you given up all frivolous spending and donate it to causes you believe to be effective? I should have started by say…

By giving you any credit at all for any of your donations, is still passing judgement on you.

EA is just doing the same moral judgement using a different accounting metric.

By going out to dinner with you wife, you are making both you and your wife happy. For that, you get 1 morality point in my book.

If you instead took that money and gave it to the make a wish foundation, you get 10 morality points.

And by giving it to the gates foundation, to help prevent Malaria, you get 100 morality points.

It is exactly the same thing it you yourself were to congratulate someone else on donating to a charity that you like. You are making a moral judgement on them.

Me making a moral judgement on you is no different.

Nobody "has" to do anything. I will fully admit that the average doctor is a better person than I am. Just like how I am probably a better person than the average pay day loan scammer.

Everyone makes judgements every day about other people. EA is just saying that these judgements should be evidence based.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effective altruism is saying one should donate by logic/ROI.

The way I read it is people would follow this method if the data was more readily available and the issue is access to data.

They are both generally true. In the absence of data, people default towards their emotional connections. Ie, a cancer survivor donating to a cancer charity. But if someone could provide data showing persuasively that you can save 10x more lives via malaria charities, that would often override the emotional appeals for many people.

It's much easier to give in to your emotions, when you aren't encumbered by contradictory data.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#154
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I've loosely held an EA-like philosophy for about a decade and I think that OpenPhil orientation towards AI is pretty disappointing. I account for my time in terms of things like number of people saved from blindness or death due to malaria, and I definitely do not count future simulated persons as worthy of any of the same concern as actual humans who exist today.

Out of curiosity: why?

Because they don't exist. It's like predicating your actions on the possible future existence of the easter bunny.

Why are these people not attempting to research the ability to contact or create deities, or perpetual motion machines? Because they don't exist.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#155
post #130

I think the Effective Altruism movement really belies its own values and cause with the fact that one of its own funds is for supporting: > organizations that work on improving long-term outcomes for humanity. Grants will likely go to organizations that seek to reduce global catastrophic risks, especially those relating to advanced artificial intelligence. [1] Yes, an argument can be made that it's important to fund…

The painful truth is that it is morally repugnant to donate. I hate saying this, by the way. If you had any experience with outreach, You would understand it is actually quite destructive to give them money, and it is much better to donate to, for example, Union Gospel Mission, a place in Seattle that does excellent homeless outreach. The city in fact contracts out to them for their services.

> The painful truth is that it is morally repugnant to donate. I hate saying this, by the way.

I hate that you said it without explaining what you meant. :P

Seriously, when you say "it is morally repugnant to donate" and "it is much better to donate to X" in the same paragraph, I am not sure what to think about it. Do you think that donating to X is still morally repugnant, although a bit less than donating to other causes? Or that donating can either be wrong or right depending on who you donate to (i.e. how the money is going to be used)? Because the latter seems like something that Effective Altruists would totally agree with.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#156

I think the Effective Altruism movement really belies its own values and cause with the fact that one of its own funds is for supporting: > organizations that work on improving long-term outcomes for humanity. Grants will likely go to organizations that seek to reduce global catastrophic risks, especially those relating to advanced artificial intelligence. [1] Yes, an argument can be made that it's important to fund…

> I think it's absolutely morally repugnant to walk past them and not give them money, because instead you're paying people to sit around thinking about AI. This is not a new argument. Sister Mary Jucunda, a Zambian nun, wrote to a NASA scientist (Ernst Stuhlinger) in the early 70's with a similar critique of funding for space research. You can read Ernst's cogent reply here: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-…

That's a rather condescending reply, lecturing her like a schoolchild. Funding space research is one thing, but spending $billions on poor designs like the Shuttle is another and on expensive American lifestyles is another.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re homelessness in the US, someone recently shared this with me and it looks promising, though it seems to only be in Seattle at the moment: https://www.samaritan.city/

I don't know that I really need an app to give beggars money or buy the Spare Change News from someone.

I don't need an app to send email or shop on Amazon either, yet here we are.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#158

It's not clear why they see this as a nascent movement. My impression of the Gates Foundation is that it uses the funds it donates in a highly analytical fashion to maximize the 'net positive gain' in the welfare of humanity. First example that comes to mind is their commitment to eradicating polio. This analytical approch been their M.O. for 20 years.

I guess the new aspect is the attempt to make it a mass movement. Not just something that Gates family does and everyone else goes "well, it's their choice how they spend their own money", but something that average people talk about.

Also, the outsourcing of research. If Gates Foundation wants to donate their millions effectively, they can use a part of the budget to find out what are the most effective ways to help. If an average person wants to donate $100, that's not enough budget to also include research. Now the person with $100 can simply read some Effective Altruist websites and follow their recommendations; thus getting the advantage of research they would not be able to finance themselves.

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I also find it unfortunate that so many people seem to see themselves as freelance interrogators of the homeless asking about what they will do with the money they're given.

Yes, thank you for saying that. The problem runs deeper than you may realize. Even very well meaning people would walk up to me and ask me "Are you homeless? What's your name?" They didn't volunteer their name, address or socioeconomic status when asking such questions. They were trying to ascertain if I would need help. A much better question format that isn't so problematic would be along the lines of "I have X (cl…

The blanket example reminds me of all the handwringing about people "misusing" LLINs as a fishing aid, as though fighting malaria is more important than not starving.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532690/

Re: Can “effective altruism” maximise the bang for each charitable buck?

#160
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200k in SF is...not a lot. At all.

Why does the CEO of Givewell need to live in SF?

This is a question that should be taken seriously. I am not sure whether they did or did not. But I can imagine there could be valid reasons. For example, living close to potential major donors could increase the chance of convincing some of them to donate. But this too is a thing that should be measured.
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