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Facebook is not worth $33 billion

37signals.com

31–40 of 266 posts

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#31
post #13
post #5

I hate to leap in with what seems like an ad-hominem attack on the 37 signals, but their utter and complete misunderstanding of all the basics of business is starting to grate on me, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Chicago. Is the problem that they're sitting there in a city without any other Internet industry, stewing in their own witty ideas, listening only to the adoring comments they get from the…

A dime per user is nice and all, but they need to make 20x that for a billion dollars in revenue. That's still only $2 per user, but a lot harder.

My gut feeling is that Facebook is somewhat overvalued at $33billion. (This is $66 for their average user.) But I don't think it is overvalued by orders of magnitudes and I think the 37signals article is very demagogue.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#32
post #14
post #2

What facebook is really worth we'll know when they IPO and they sell off a majority portion of the stock. Until then it's anybody's guess. I wouldn't buy their stock at any valuation, there are much more solid ways of investing than speculating on something that already feels over valued. And if I would want more risk then I'd rather put my money in start-ups than facebook. The next bubble is here, and it will go the…

I agree, but as an aside, is it possible Netscape merited that valuation? Was Netscape's a squandered opportunity, or the most likely outcome. I mean this in the sense of odds--was the valuation wrong because the odds of success were really so slim, or are we calling the die roll of a hard six inevitable after the fact? I bring this up because I had a similar feeling to what you describe about Google around its secon…

Google at least has a business model, I can't say I can actually detect one in the case of facebook.

As for netscape, yes, in part it was a lost (or destroyed, more likely) opportunity, but at the same time even if they had continued to be successful their valuation at the time was right up there with far future science fiction.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#33
post #18
post #5

I hate to leap in with what seems like an ad-hominem attack on the 37 signals, but their utter and complete misunderstanding of all the basics of business is starting to grate on me, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Chicago. Is the problem that they're sitting there in a city without any other Internet industry, stewing in their own witty ideas, listening only to the adoring comments they get from the…

1. Thanks for the word correction, updated. 2. Publicly traded companies have instant liquidity on many more shares, which makes using "last share sold" an meaningful metric. 3. When only 3% of the money a company is supposedly worth has been moved around, it's a poor indicator of what the other 97% would go for. 4. They haven't figured out how to make much profit yet. And it's still questionable whether they will. M…

It's weird, it's like in Chicago they don't have multiplication or something.

Oh, and New York smells. (take that!)

Two of my heroes dragging discourse on hacker news into the toilet. What's the world coming to?

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#34
1. The company has supposedly taken just under a billion dollars in venture capital and small secondary-market sales of stock. So the actual money that has changed hands is just 3% of the total evaluation of the company!"

Not true. Sure they have raised $1B themselves, but a lot of stock has changed hands on the secondary market. Facebook sanctioned employees being able to sell stock up to a certain amount, in lieu of going public (employee pressure was part of what prompted Google to go public).

2. "In other words, the evaluation is resting on the flawed assumption that Facebook could actually ever get 33 times as much money to change hands if they wanted to. There’s just no way, no how that’s happening right now. If it could, they’d IPO tomorrow."

Again not true. When you IPO you don't float 100% of your shares. In the case of Facebook, an IPO may not even see 10% of the company listed - ie. not a lot more than what is already being traded in secondary markets.

Most listed companies do not exchange 100% of their stock - not even close. By this reckoning then, no company in the world has a real valuation because at no time is all of their stock available for purchase. The author needs to go to Google Finance and lookup any of the Fortune 100 and see for himself that most have a lot of stock outstanding or not listed.

3. "If the supposed billion dollars Facebook is allegedly pulling in this year was happening at anywhere a decent margin, they wouldn’t have needed a series E round of $120 million from Elevation Partners just three months ago."

You should have read the link you posted, because the story is that Elevation bought $120M of stock from private holders. ie. Facebook didn't raise that money. The last money they raised was $200M (on $10B) from Digital Sky in May of 09[2]

(btw if you did read the story at the link you referenced, the 4th paragraph mentions that Facebook revenue for '09 was $700-800M, not the 200 'best guess, being generous' that you work on).

But anyway, the recent (cheap) money they raised went into CAPEX (building datacenters to lower your overheads) and cashing out some stock holders for a very high valuation for non-voting stock.

Facebook is still at the growth stage so every dollar is (wisely) re-invested in the company in ways that will improve the bottom line. $100M is a drop compared to the cost of building datacenters (the new Google datacenter in Iceland cost 250M - without servers).

Having their own datacenters will reduce their infrastructure costs over time. While it is a lot of money - it will pay itself off within a few years because atm they are leasing space and bandwidth. Not a bad use of what is 1% of their company.

4. "But let’s be charitable. Let’s imagine that Facebook miraculously made $200 million this year — a 20% margin. (I don’t think that’s true, otherwise why take another $120 million from Elevation Partners, but hey, let your imagination roam). That would put Facebook’s P/E at some 165."

How about we Get Real(tm) and say $1.1B this year[1], and that is before they start booking platform revenue from Facebook credits, which will be 30% of everything Zynga et al make (and Zynga made over $500M+ in '09). $700+ in 99, $1.1B+ this year, and at least an extra billion in the first year of Facebook credits. Not bad.

Each time they double revenue you can halve the PE - which is why it is so high atm.

"No outrageous profits after seven years and half a billion users"

They are profitable, and on a trajectory that will see them reach ridiculous numbers. See the more sane and informed discussion about Facebook revenue projetions and the business model here:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1718512

(if you are actually interested in learning why Facebook is valued so highly, what the business model is and where it is going - check this link, the conversation took place earlier today and it will save me re-hashing a lot of the points here)

Facebook has reached every corner of the world in short time. We can all agree that their ads suck - yet even with this shitty advertising, which is mostly for Russian brides, they have managed to hit a cool $1B - without even trying. Imagine if they had some real ad technology behind that site. They will do something that Google has failed to do, that is, have two sources of revenue. 1. the ads. 2. the platform - both of these are billion dollar businesses.

What is more depressing than just how mis-informed and terrible this article is? The number of fans in the comments who eat up every word and cheer them on.

(Edit: updated)

[1] http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/22/facebook-revenues/

[2] http://www.crunchbase.com/company/facebook

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#35
post #3

"Facebook has been around for seven years. It has 500 million users. If you can’t figure out how to make money off half a billion people in seven years, I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re unlikely to ever do." This is a strawman. If they wanted to make money right now they would. But they also observed many examples of turning-the-faucet-on gone wrong, especially with the whole privacy issues, that they are…

what exactly are they waiting for? They have half a billion users. You know, that is more than America and Russia together, or comparable to the entire population of the geographical Europe. They can only go down hill from here I think. Therefore, personally I certainly would not wait. The truth is really that they do not know how to monetize themselves effectively

While the exact numbers are obviously not available - something like 500 million was spent on FB ads in 2009 and in 2010 that number is likely a billion.

I don't take David's flawed 'they wouldn't raise money if they were making good revenue' as a valid statement. The revenue they make is all profit - there is no middle man or hidden expenses. They have operating costs which are sizeable, but it as they grow and mature their business and revenue - their profit will grow.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#36
post #5

I hate to leap in with what seems like an ad-hominem attack on the 37 signals, but their utter and complete misunderstanding of all the basics of business is starting to grate on me, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Chicago. Is the problem that they're sitting there in a city without any other Internet industry, stewing in their own witty ideas, listening only to the adoring comments they get from the…

I remember a documentary on Walmart where someone said they succeeded by realizing that a small percentage from a very large number is still a very large number.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#37
post #33
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Thanks for the word correction, updated. 2. Publicly traded companies have instant liquidity on many more shares, which makes using "last share sold" an meaningful metric. 3. When only 3% of the money a company is supposedly worth has been moved around, it's a poor indicator of what the other 97% would go for. 4. They haven't figured out how to make much profit yet. And it's still questionable whether they will. M…

It's weird, it's like in Chicago they don't have multiplication or something. Oh, and New York smells. (take that!) Two of my heroes dragging discourse on hacker news into the toilet. What's the world coming to?

You should never meet your heroes (IRL or online). It invariably leads to disappointment.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#38
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but as an aside, is it possible Netscape merited that valuation? Was Netscape's a squandered opportunity, or the most likely outcome. I mean this in the sense of odds--was the valuation wrong because the odds of success were really so slim, or are we calling the die roll of a hard six inevitable after the fact? I bring this up because I had a similar feeling to what you describe about Google around its secon…

Google at least has a business model, I can't say I can actually detect one in the case of facebook. As for netscape, yes, in part it was a lost (or destroyed, more likely) opportunity, but at the same time even if they had continued to be successful their valuation at the time was right up there with far future science fiction.

How can you "not detect" a business model for a company that has revenues of over a billion dollars? seriously?

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#39
post #5

I hate to leap in with what seems like an ad-hominem attack on the 37 signals, but their utter and complete misunderstanding of all the basics of business is starting to grate on me, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Chicago. Is the problem that they're sitting there in a city without any other Internet industry, stewing in their own witty ideas, listening only to the adoring comments they get from the…

There is a relevant difference between valuations derived from secondary markets and public markets. Investors in secondary markets rarely have clear understanding of real financials or the capital structure of the company. This is a good writeup: http://www.homethinking.com/brontemedia/2010/09/17/secondary...

Also, Chicago has lots of smart people, and I agree with you that FB is well positioned to make lots of money.

Re: Facebook is not worth $33 billion

#40
post #18
post #5

I hate to leap in with what seems like an ad-hominem attack on the 37 signals, but their utter and complete misunderstanding of all the basics of business is starting to grate on me, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Chicago. Is the problem that they're sitting there in a city without any other Internet industry, stewing in their own witty ideas, listening only to the adoring comments they get from the…

1. Thanks for the word correction, updated. 2. Publicly traded companies have instant liquidity on many more shares, which makes using "last share sold" an meaningful metric. 3. When only 3% of the money a company is supposedly worth has been moved around, it's a poor indicator of what the other 97% would go for. 4. They haven't figured out how to make much profit yet. And it's still questionable whether they will. M…

it's "a meanningful metric" not "an meaningful metric". Please spell people. This is not SMS!
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