Live data from Hacker News

Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

breck-mckye.com

201–210 of 366 posts

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#201
post #152
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got asked if I had a blog in an interview. I am a software engineer not a self marketer.

I am a software engineer that loves to help others. Nothing to do with self-marketing, at least not intentionally, but a welcomed skill in the team. So the question makes sense to me.

I like helping others as well. I don't need to fart about writing blogs to do it.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#202
post #82

At some point, when modules get "micro" enough, the effort of managing them and learning their usage outweighs the effort of implementing the thing yourself. Most JavaScript projects seem to walk that line quite closely. I'm a React developer at work, but I recently gave Vue a try at home. This is one of the things that most stood out to me about it. React makes a selling point out of the fact that it's "just renderi…

I'd use a decent React-based framework. My issue with Vue is that I disagree with some of the design choices.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#203
post #51

This problem is way deeper than web front ends. There were/are dozens of frameworks for Windows and Unix front ends too, before browsers were invented. Every year or two some new tool became popular which made all the previous ones obsolete.

Not really. On Unix it was Motif vs OpenLook. On Windows it was MFC vs OWL. On Mac it was PowerPlant vs MacApp. And that was it really, and you could have stuck with one for over a decade and never been short of work.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! I'm not sure how serious this comment is in terms of how you choose to spend your time at work, but a person with that attitude isn't going to last long working for me. I expect them to deliver . I'm not a tyrant, and I avoid setting hard deadlines as much as reasonably possible, but I do expect concrete evidence of output that delivers customer and/or business value. Still, in many organisations I think you're r…

Someone with that attitude isn't going to last long working for you anyway: as soon as they're hired, they'll put your company on their resume, blog about everything they've learned, trump up their first project, and start looking for their next gig, usually getting a big pay increase in the process.

Indeed - and possibly write an expose about how terrible it was to work for us that will gain traction across a variety of social media sites.

(I am not usually this cynical before lunchtime, honestly.)

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#205
The article is right about the frontend side, but I think it doesn't look to good on the backend either. The actual code side (frameworks, libraries and languages) is relatively stable, but mostly because most of the complexity nowadays goes away from monoliths and into services, of which many are off the shelf, and plagued with the same issues as all the trendy javascript frameworks. Nosql-database du jour that solves some problems allegedly very efficiently, messaging systems, thousand ways to script infrastructure and virtualization.. the hype is not in the code and libraries, it's in the infrastructure components, but that doesn't make it any better.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#206

Web frameworks are churn-y because they are incredibly leaky abstractions covering really awkward impedance mismatches. This means that they are never quite satisfactory - and that just to use one, you need to be capable of building a new one yourself. Think of a typical web app. Your data exists: 1. As rows in a database, accessed via SQL 2. As model objects on the server, accessed via method calls and attributes 3.…

All of this is why, in the end, more and more... I do things "the hard way". If I'm using a dynamic language WTF do I need an ORM for, if I understand enough to write an SQL command, and use a library for that DB that does parameterized queries? On the front end, I tend to lean towards abstractions that work together... I really like React and the material-ui library's switch to JSS. It's relatively clean, and useful…

> I do things "the hard way". If I'm using a dynamic language WTF do I need an ORM for

I think it's mostly premature optimization. People think writing DTOs is challenging, so they want an ORM. But since you end up needing DTOs anwyays, removing SQL capabilities from the app means writing SQL in not SQL, and things like joins suddenly become slow and problematic and result in really heavy systems that are harder to change. For the joy of a quicker startup the entire project moves slower.

ORMs have their place, but in the majority of the systems I've seen they were unnecessary, and in broad terms don't provide any particular productivity advantage over using "dumb" SQL-based mapping solutions (a la Dapper [https://github.com/StackExchange/Dapper]), that preserve the power of SQL.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm finding the growing celebrity culture of programming to be troubling. I find that programming is becoming less and less about code or architecture and more about evangelism and marketing, but I'm not sure what changed in the incentive structure for this to happen, and I would like to find out. Aside: This has made me reconsider being a career programmer.

Similar boat. I’ve been presenting passion projects to user groups / unconferences for a decade. Now, I wasn’t aware at the time but around 2013 seems like the turning point. I was getting tingles then. I never wanted to be a celebrity but it seems my aptitude has sent the wrong signals to some. I refuse to tow company lines, but acknowledge funding of open work or course. Starting to explore other outlets for sohpis…

[Offtopic]

I don't know if this is your intention, but your streaming platforms title may be sending different signals than you think: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Spooge

FreshSpooge and iSpooge sound like awesome product names if you're working for MindGeek, tho ;)

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#208
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem for other communities, like Python. I read a blog post recently from a well known python dev where he talks about explicitly cultivating "fame" around his open source tools. My experience, as one who has tried to promote my own tools, is that literally nothing good will come of it for the community as a whole. It's a bad practice in my opinion. For example: https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/issues/2228

What incentives would a someone have to invest a considerable amount of time in releasing and maintaining an open source project if they can't even use that to promote themselves?

Maybe they have a genuine interest in the problem they're addressing, and in solving it. I work on some open source projects that gain little attention from others but have great utility to me, personally.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#209

Web frameworks are churn-y because they are incredibly leaky abstractions covering really awkward impedance mismatches. This means that they are never quite satisfactory - and that just to use one, you need to be capable of building a new one yourself. Think of a typical web app. Your data exists: 1. As rows in a database, accessed via SQL 2. As model objects on the server, accessed via method calls and attributes 3.…

This is a great comment and an amazing insight. What's particularly interesting is that people have attempted to collapse (almost?) every stage of that abstraction hierarchy individually, but none of them have been so successful as to take over the world. If you were writing a desktop application, you would still have at least three of the layers (serialized data on disk, in-memory data, and the rendering of the obje…

Thanks! And funny you should mention that. We're challenging every layer of that heirarchy simultaneously, by building a development environment for the web and making it as integrated as Delphi or VB were on the desktop:

https://anvil.works

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#210

Web frameworks are churn-y because they are incredibly leaky abstractions covering really awkward impedance mismatches. This means that they are never quite satisfactory - and that just to use one, you need to be capable of building a new one yourself. Think of a typical web app. Your data exists: 1. As rows in a database, accessed via SQL 2. As model objects on the server, accessed via method calls and attributes 3.…

What is curious is that the tech industry has been very conservative about rethinking these 6 things that you just listed. Why rows in a relational database? Why objects? Why Javascript? And why HTML? We'd surely be in a better place if we got rid of these things and rethought our approach from first principles.

I've written about these issues many times before.

Regarding the problem with objects, I wrote "Object Oriented Programming Is An Expensive Disaster Which Must End":

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/object-oriented-progr...

Regarding the problems of HTML, I wrote "The problem with HTML":

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/the-problem-with-html

To answer the question "Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?" the answer is surely, in part, the fact that we refuse to build technologies that are designed to be great front-end technologies.

Post reply on HN