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Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

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Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#131
Sorry but I find font-end development pretty stable.

Having to learn a new library every 3-4 years (because of a new job, generally) is it really a big deal?

In my career I also had to learn Java, PHP, C#, Node.js, bash, batch, Python… Build apps with Spring, CakePHP, Symfony 1 & 2, ASP.NET MVC 3 & 4… Query database with Hibernate, Entity Framework, Linq SQL… Handle dependencies with Maven, Nugget… Store data in Postgres, MySQL, SQL Server, Mongo, Redis, Redshift… Host on OVH, Digital Ocean, Heroku, AWS… Learn REST and GraphQL, SVN and Git, Linux and Windows Server, Vagrant and Docker… And according to HN, what's really hype right now is Rust, Go, FoundationDB, Kubernetes, and so on…

Any idea why back-end development is so unstable? :)

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#132
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure what changed in the incentive structure for this to happen, and I would like to find out. People started getting paid more for doing this because managers have no idea what programming actually is.

Which is why it is so much more cost effective to spend your time marketing to those managers than writing code to market to the developers.

It doesn't help that most developers are language fanboys who have no idea what actual programming means.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#133

Web frameworks are churn-y because they are incredibly leaky abstractions covering really awkward impedance mismatches. This means that they are never quite satisfactory - and that just to use one, you need to be capable of building a new one yourself. Think of a typical web app. Your data exists: 1. As rows in a database, accessed via SQL 2. As model objects on the server, accessed via method calls and attributes 3.…

This is a great comment and an amazing insight. What's particularly interesting is that people have attempted to collapse (almost?) every stage of that abstraction hierarchy individually, but none of them have been so successful as to take over the world.

If you were writing a desktop application, you would still have at least three of the layers (serialized data on disk, in-memory data, and the rendering of the objects), but without the dramatic impedance mismatch that the web platform introduces everywhere.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#135

Sorry but I find font-end development pretty stable. Having to learn a new library every 3-4 years (because of a new job, generally) is it really a big deal? In my career I also had to learn Java, PHP, C#, Node.js, bash, batch, Python… Build apps with Spring, CakePHP, Symfony 1 & 2, ASP.NET MVC 3 & 4… Query database with Hibernate, Entity Framework, Linq SQL… Handle dependencies with Maven, Nugget… Store data in Post…

I think the title is referring to the ecosystem and not the technology.

• How many frameworks for Java, Python, Bash, etc did you have to learn?

• Did you switch from Redis to X because the former was deprecated N months later?

• Are OVH, Heroku, AWS updates getting in the way of your development process?

Learning a technology by itself like Node.js is not a problem, the problem is that front-end development nowadays requires so many small and fragile tools just to build a web application compared to the number of tools that you would need in another language like C# where the most recognized libraries are several times more stable and change with much less frequency. Mentioning things like database engines, cloud platforms and version control tools is out of the scope of the discussion because they are encapsulated tools, and at least the ones that you mentioned (before you updated your comment) have a very low release rate, and to my opinion are very-very stable in comparison with the JavaScript ecosystem.

> Having to learn a new library every 3-4 years (usually when starting a new job) is it really a big deal?

Yes, it is.

> In my career I also had to learn …

Not for the same project and/or development cycle, but surprise me if I that's the case.

> And according to HN, what's really hype right now is Rust, Go, FoundationDB, Kubernetes, and so on

People stick to them and that's it, I don't know any serious company changing their tech stack every N months just because they are trendy on HN. Several years later they may switch to a new tech stack because the project requirements have changed but not because the author of one of the thousand libraries that you are importing decided to carelessly modify a feature that another dozen libraries use, consequently breaking not just your code but also many others. Or, in another scenario, your package manager doesn't betray you by destroying all your file system during a careless upgrade [1].

> Learn REST and GraphQL, SVN and Git, Linux and Windows Server, Vagrant and Docker

You are missing the point entirely… We are talking about how "unstable" front-end development is, not how many tools you have to learn. If I could learn 10-20 tools for front-end development and be certain that they will not drastically change in a year or so, or at least get deprecated, then — and only then — I would not have to worry so much about available updates via the main and (unfortunately) only package manager that the JavaScript community have.

[1] https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/19883

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#136

Having worked as a frontend dev for a while, my observation is this - because the UI is closer to the user, and closer to the product side (for consumer-facing apps), it has faster iteration cycles, doubling or tripling the rate of technology decisions that are made. You'd never rewrite an API twice in a year, but maybe you'd rebuild your site or interface that often, if you're responding to users. With increased dem…

Yeah, there's a perfect storm that happens on the frontend.

(1) Users are more empowered and expected to continually change requirements all the time. (2) The underlying technology is broken. Specifically, there is no component model that makes it easy to compose existing components. Every frontend app reinvents not just the wheel but the tools to cut the stone. (3) There is no UI component model provided by the browser. Every webapp looks and behaves completely different from every other webapp. There are no common metaphors, common components, common fonts, common icons or even best practices. Every company writes their own UI kit and interface guidelines. (4) Thanks to the highly intelligent fuckers at Google/Facebook/Yahoo everybody has very high expectations when it comes to Web UIs. These guys are also driving rapid innovation in the space. Unlike Windows apps -- which haven't changed much in 25 years -- Webapps seem to become dramatically different every 3-5 years.

The result is the wild west meets post-apocalyptic disaster where everything is constantly changing and the developers don't have the tools to actually manage or control this change.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#137

This is a really well-written and well-thought out piece. The author touches on a number of points but never gets polemical. This piece resonated with me particularly well: > Be wary of self-promotion > Over the last few years I’ve seen much more aggressive self-marketing in the JavaScript world, possibly due to the rise of paid online training materials and the employment/consulting advantage of being a Github ‘cele…

I'm finding the growing celebrity culture of programming to be troubling. I find that programming is becoming less and less about code or architecture and more about evangelism and marketing, but I'm not sure what changed in the incentive structure for this to happen, and I would like to find out. Aside: This has made me reconsider being a career programmer.

Similar boat. I’ve been presenting passion projects to user groups / unconferences for a decade. Now, I wasn’t aware at the time but around 2013 seems like the turning point. I was getting tingles then. I never wanted to be a celebrity but it seems my aptitude has sent the wrong signals to some. I refuse to tow company lines, but acknowledge funding of open work or course. Starting to explore other outlets for sohpistic endeavors eg. live streaming (shameless plug, building an open source platform, search: ispooge live). People subscribe and keep coming back and chatting too, didn’t expect that but it’s pretty cool. I feel it can lead to a good career in some way, involving good natural collaboration. Maybe even money ;).

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#139
post #83

Calling out Vue.js as a possible solution is hilarious. Selling a trending technology as a silver bullet is exactly the problem he complains about in the article. Comparing the development methodology of Facebook - the company behind React - and this mindset is illuminating. Facebook famously rewrote PHP and added extensions like XHP rather than start their codebase from scratch. React follows a similar philosphy. It…

In my experience, Vue is much easier to integrate gradually than React. You can't knock it just because it's relatively "trendy". Do your research.

That's been our experience as well.

I much prefer the more holistic approach to development that Vue.js provides over React.

And we did spend a year working with React, so it's not just something we did off the cuff.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why it is so much more cost effective to spend your time marketing to those managers than writing code to market to the developers.

It doesn't help that most developers are language fanboys who have no idea what actual programming means.

I ask this in the most serious of ways, could you explain what actual programming is?
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