Loot boxes are obviously gambling • Hacker News Board

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#161

Post by kingkongjaffa » Wed, May 30, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

Grangar wrote: post #110

FrozenVoid wrote: post #47

The lootbox mechanic can be easily disguised without making it seem like gambling: 1.Buy lots in-game currency with cash or grind X hours for it. 2.Buy "A ticket to dungeon Y" with in-game currency. 3.The dungeon has a boss that is essentially a easy to kill walking lootbox. Tada, all gambling regulations bypassed. If you want to play loot-centric games this is your choice. All MMOs that revolve around items and loot…

I think the easy-to-kill-walking-lootbox-boss isn't as as much gambling as the current lootbox system. An important element is that the game shows you all these possible rewards much like a slot machine. I'd be surprised if they'd include that as a gameplay element.

dedicated people use their past wins against bosses to populate drop table of the potential chance of getting a certain drop. It's very much a system that shows your all possible rewards like a slot machine.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#162

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Wed, May 30, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #142

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what people (used to?) call "ego-dystonic" situations (?). I like the zen of the particular wording you give.

I think the idea is that in an ego-dystonic illness _you_ know this is a problem, and in other mental illnesses other people have spotted it's a problem but you can't/ won't. For example starving yourself to death is definitely a problem, but body-image mental health illness that causes it usually leave the sufferer unable to recognise this consequence of their actions.

Cheers. Should have bothered to look it up :0

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#163

Post by baud147258 » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #102

m12k wrote: post #57

I think there's a pattern here: 'Highly talented company makes highly praised product but eventually realizes there is much more money in exploitative products instead'. Valve made the amazing Half-Life series, then later seems to have come to the conclusion that their return on investment is just much higher if they focus on multiplayer games with loot boxes (plus selling other people's games and taking a cut). Bliz…

For Blizzard, you forgot about Diablo 3, which was designed to push people toward the (real-money) auction house (a good write-up here: http://www.sullla.com/D3/unsatisfying.html ). But I agree that, right now, they are not the worst offender, at least with Overwatch (I haven't played Hearstone and I haven't played enough of HotS to reach the lootboxes).

Addenda, from Diablo III's wikipedia page:

" In March 2013, former Diablo III game director Jay Wilson stated that he felt the existence of the auction houses "really hurt" the game. "

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#164

Post by Karunamon » Wed, May 30, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #159

Karunamon wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'm ready to sacrifice CCGs on the altar of "think of the children!" just because it might knock game companies down a peg.

Well, it's not like anyone asked horse racing or poker enthusiasts if they're ready to sacrifice anything before their games were regulated.

In which case, I am completely against this legislation. The supposed harm being addressed is nebulous, if it even exists.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#165

Post by oxide » Thu, May 31, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

pfisch wrote: post #155

mmt wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loot boxes do not have the 3rd element of gambling Huh? I thought it was well established that there is value and that, in some cases, it could even be "legitimately" (even according to the rules of the game provider) traded for real-world money. This may not apply to all constructs that could be considered "loot boxes", but I'm confident it's not the case that the vast majority lack the feature of of transferabili…

> I thought it was well established that there is value and that, in some cases, it could even be "legitimately" (even according to the rules of the game provider) traded for real-world money. I have never heard of any game provider doing that. I don't really believe you because they would have no legal protection if they did that. All of their arguments are that the digital goods in the lootbox have no real cash val…

I can (and have) easily cashed out everything that is on the Steam marketplace for USD.

Ever heard of a third party? How about paypal? Is a gray market a concept foreign to you entirely?

I can exchange them to a bot, recieve Amazon gift card funds, and then turn that into USD.

I can trade them straight up for any cryptocurrency.

I can have a bank deposit made tomorrow.

I can exchange them for points on a website which get cashed out for USD/EUR/GBP.

The list goes on.

Just because you are ignorant and Steam isn't directly handing me a dollar for every Steam wallet dollar doesn't mean it is impossible.

Please educate yourself or stop feigning.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#166

Post by ayrx » Thu, May 31, 2018, 5:15 AM UTC

SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #160

ayrx wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually untrue for Hearthstone. You can be perfectly competitive without playing arena or buying packs. I haven't paid a cent for the past 2 years and can play all the competitive decks I want in every meta. Blizzard has been very good with bumping up the rewards you get from playing normally.

I stopped playing 2 years ago so that's likely it, for the first 2 years of hearthstone from closed beta to when I stopped the rewards were lacking. When I had time to play a lot in early student years, I could play some expansions without paying a thing but getting busier in later student years I fell behind too quickly.

Yeah, it was a pain in the early days but I feel like Blizzard has recognised that and are actively taking steps to improve things.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#167

Post by mmt » Thu, May 31, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

oxide wrote: post #165

pfisch wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought it was well established that there is value and that, in some cases, it could even be "legitimately" (even according to the rules of the game provider) traded for real-world money. I have never heard of any game provider doing that. I don't really believe you because they would have no legal protection if they did that. All of their arguments are that the digital goods in the lootbox have no real cash val…

I can (and have) easily cashed out everything that is on the Steam marketplace for USD. Ever heard of a third party? How about paypal? Is a gray market a concept foreign to you entirely? I can exchange them to a bot, recieve Amazon gift card funds, and then turn that into USD. I can trade them straight up for any cryptocurrency. I can have a bank deposit made tomorrow. I can exchange them for points on a website whic…

To be fair, it was a response to my accusation of legitimate exchange for real-world money, which, if any grey-market is involved, is technically not fully legitimate (according to, e.g. Steam).

There's also the argument that, because Steam makes an active effort to resist the grey-market exchnges, that gives them some kind of deniability or "legal protection". I believe that both you and I agree that it does not, at least not in any meanigful sense. I also doubt that was their motivation in the first place, rather than, for example, maximizing their own profit in selling the digital goods themselves.

> Steam isn't directly handing me a dollar for every Steam wallet dollar doesn't mean it is impossible.

I think this is actually the most important point. It's not that grey markets have to be involved to convert digital goods into real money. It's that Steam has legitimized everything but the very last step of converting their in-game currency into real currency (and take a cut along the way, from what I understand from other comments in the thread).

This is espeically true if they permit the exchange of real dollars into Steam dollars and merely prohibit the reverse exchange. There's no claiming "entertainment value only" and being taken seriously.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#168

Post by manicdee » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 5:05 AM UTC

jerrre wrote: post #84

manicdee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is defined as the activity of playingva game for stakes or betting on an uncertain outcome. Playing poker for matchsticks is just as much gambling as playing poker for a $50k pot. The only thing changing is the stakes of the gamble.

Is monopoly gambling? Where buying property is betting on the uncertain outcome of someone landing there later, and the stakes are playmoney or the honors of winning?

What stakes are you playing monopoly for? When the game is packed up back in its box, is the winner walking away from the table with value extracted from the other players?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#169

Post by pfisch » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

oxide wrote: post #165

pfisch wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought it was well established that there is value and that, in some cases, it could even be "legitimately" (even according to the rules of the game provider) traded for real-world money. I have never heard of any game provider doing that. I don't really believe you because they would have no legal protection if they did that. All of their arguments are that the digital goods in the lootbox have no real cash val…

I can (and have) easily cashed out everything that is on the Steam marketplace for USD. Ever heard of a third party? How about paypal? Is a gray market a concept foreign to you entirely? I can exchange them to a bot, recieve Amazon gift card funds, and then turn that into USD. I can trade them straight up for any cryptocurrency. I can have a bank deposit made tomorrow. I can exchange them for points on a website whic…

Mostly what mmt1 said, but also what you are describing is against the tos of steam.

They have done everything within their power to make this not legitimate.

If an operator buys a game that normally gives out tickets and uses it as an illegal gambling device is the game developer responsible for that, or is the operator?

Steam is not responsible for grey market transactions it is actively working to shut down. The grey market is the one operating the casino here.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#170

Post by mmt » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

pfisch wrote: post #169

oxide wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can (and have) easily cashed out everything that is on the Steam marketplace for USD. Ever heard of a third party? How about paypal? Is a gray market a concept foreign to you entirely? I can exchange them to a bot, recieve Amazon gift card funds, and then turn that into USD. I can trade them straight up for any cryptocurrency. I can have a bank deposit made tomorrow. I can exchange them for points on a website whic…

Mostly what mmt1 said, but also what you are describing is against the tos of steam. They have done everything within their power to make this not legitimate. If an operator buys a game that normally gives out tickets and uses it as an illegal gambling device is the game developer responsible for that, or is the operator? Steam is not responsible for grey market transactions it is actively working to shut down. The g…

> what you are describing is against the tos of steam. > They have done everything within their power to make this not legitimate.

There's no evidence they've done everything in their power to eliminate grey market transactions. It's in their power, for example, to remove transferability of items (or maybe just items from loot boxes, though I'm insufficiently familiar with them to know if that could be gamed).

However, it's almost entirely irrelevant, because that's only one piece of a much larger "puzzle".

> If an operator buys a game that normally gives out tickets and uses it as an illegal gambling device is the game developer responsible for that, or is the operator?

This questions seems immaterial, since Steam is both the game developer and the operator.

> The grey market is the one operating the casino here.

Steam is operating every single part of the casino, except the very last little bit of cashing out the chips. They even have a cashier from whom one can buy chips in the first place!

You actually have it backward. It's the grey market that is not responsible for Steam's operation of a casino. It would still exist if items were still transferable, still had real world value to someone, but were no longer available through a Steam-operated lottery system.