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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#81

Post by andrei_says_ »

kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

> We now stand completely naked and exposed as the irrational, animal, mamalian ape that we are in front of the extreme exponential technological whirlwind that has made everything so complex, fast changing and exploitative that we have no option but to completely drop out or ride the tiger.

Love the imagery in your writing... I think we do have an option for now (turn off your phone when you get home/go on vacation etc.) and that the animal were riding is not a tiger but a rabid monkey in heat stung by a scorpion, which is how some yogis describe the unquestioned mind.

The observation of my own patterns and relationship with media/attention grabbing tech it has become clear to me that if I am to be productive and healthy, I need to change my relationship with my mind.

It’s a challenge, but a worthy one.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#82

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

> has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century,

Cat was out of the bag the day some shopkeeper figured out printing advertisements.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#83

Post by ramblerman »

kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

Or as with most new things it gets a bit out of hand and it takes a generation or two to find a balance. But don't let me deny you the pleasure of your apocalyptic rantings :)

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#84

Post by jerrre »

manicdee wrote: post #77
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #75

> "Loot boxes work like gambling, and they're designed like gambling. They're designed to provoke compulsive reward-seeking behavior." Just because A has some properties of B doesn't mean that A is B. I think both gambling and loot-boxes could be categorized as subsets of the set of things that are "compulsive reward-seeking behavior".

Gambling is defined as the activity of playingva game for stakes or betting on an uncertain outcome. Playing poker for matchsticks is just as much gambling as playing poker for a $50k pot. The only thing changing is the stakes of the gamble.

Is monopoly gambling? Where buying property is betting on the uncertain outcome of someone landing there later, and the stakes are playmoney or the honors of winning?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#85

Post by zouhair »

kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

And now that we lost the biggest voice for consumers, namely TotalBiscuit, we are royally screwed

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#86

Post by bni »

There was outrage from the "gamer community" in Sweden a few years back when Swedish gambling authority wanted to regulate "Internet Cafes".

I guess the line between games and gambling wasnt so clear cut after all.

Disgusting. This needs to be rooted out completely from the gaming industry.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#87

Post by slavik81 »

Nullabillity wrote: post #62
FrozenVoid wrote: post #47

The lootbox mechanic can be easily disguised without making it seem like gambling: 1.Buy lots in-game currency with cash or grind X hours for it. 2.Buy "A ticket to dungeon Y" with in-game currency. 3.The dungeon has a boss that is essentially a easy to kill walking lootbox. Tada, all gambling regulations bypassed. If you want to play loot-centric games this is your choice. All MMOs that revolve around items and loot…

So.. single-use dungeon tickets are gambling too?

There's one level of indirection between letting you buy an exclusive pass to fight a monster that has some special random drop vs. letting you buy a special random drop. That's basically the 'skill-testing question' hack that's used to run every sweepstakes in Canada. You'd have a revolt on your hands if you outlawed "Roll Up the Rim to Win".

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#88

Post by draugadrotten »

jerrre wrote: post #84
manicdee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is defined as the activity of playingva game for stakes or betting on an uncertain outcome. Playing poker for matchsticks is just as much gambling as playing poker for a $50k pot. The only thing changing is the stakes of the gamble.

Is monopoly gambling? Where buying property is betting on the uncertain outcome of someone landing there later, and the stakes are playmoney or the honors of winning?

To argue that monopoly for playmoney is "gambling" is sophism. When one talks about gambling the bet is for real money (or other tokens with real monetary value). Playing roulette "for honors" would not be gambling either, it would be just playing. The argument you make is sophistic because you are focusing on the word gambling instead of seeing the real issue - that gambling for real money can cause addiction and worse. A random number generator is taking chances all the time, but it is not gambling for money until you connect the outcomes to real money.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#89

Post by dtech »

SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #76
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would easily argue Blizzard has the most generous/least exploitative loot box models. Cosmetic only with a fairly regular/healthy rate of freebies, not to mention the currency you get that lets you acquire the ones you actually want without relentlessly "rolling". Heroes of the Storm steps it up even further with a reroll mechanic you can use for disappointing boxes. Compared to the others in the industry, Blizzard…

HotS and Overwatch really aren't exploitative sure, but Hearthstone is incredibly exploitative. Unless you are so good you can go "infinite" in arena (always make your gold entry fee back and then some, on average), you have to buy packs for every expansion that comes out. Or you have to play with lower-tier cards, which some people do successfully, but to get the most out of the game or be "competitive" they will ne…

That is very much the nature of a CGC though. Hearthstone seems less exploitative than Magic the Gathering, Pokemon TCG or Yu-Gi-Oh because you can trade in unwanted card and those have been around for a long time.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#90

Post by bryanrasmussen »

usrusr wrote: post #72
jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

But card packs are random at least. The very rarest card will be equally rare for every buyer, any time. Loot boxes can be much worse than gambling on a random number generator: game servers know the inventory of a player and can tailor box contents to always keep the inventory close to one of the many thresholds that are usually designed into game rules. Maybe some operators are voluntarily staying away from these d…

Couldn't you prove operators were doing it by running a large number of accounts, checking the distribution of inventory and figuring out what the likelihood of distributions?
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