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Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

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Re: Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

#101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There aren’t even a preponderance of correlative data that shows a link between tax cuts and economic growth—except where economic growth is defined as a disproportionate increase in wealth concentration in ever smaller percentages of the population. I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't…

> I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't mean much. You do realize you’re stating exactly what I did in slightly different wording? Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank…

>Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank accounts of an increasingly smaller proportion of the population?

Economic growth is nominally defined as increase in GDP. Hopefully we don't have to keep doing this dance.

>Nothing in my comment faults individuals for maximizing their potential gains under a capitalist system.

This is your comment - "If waste is something you find especially onerous, shouldn’t we start by pointing the finger at the private companies who submit “wasteful” bids/invoices?"

> If you do, on what sensible grounds can you criticize the government for paying up?

The sensible ground is the fact that allocation of government resources is influenced by lobbying and other special interests. Not to mention governments' own waste (e.g. government employees abusing government credit cards or the $2 million intern and about a million other things).

> At which point, your ideology is blaming the government for “wasting” resources when there are no other options, and—with no evidence provided—concludes the answer is to starve the government of resources to use for the public good.

That is hilarious. No other options but to buy more F35s?

>You appear to believe you can eliminate waste not by targeting where the waste is procured (and where the rates are set) but by targeting who pays for it. That’s some pretty interesting mental gymnastics there.

You are too naive if you think the system will magically reform itself or that people can be trained to be frugal with someone elses money when they have zero incentive to do so.

>You’re claiming it’s out there, so where is it?

Where did I claim that? You seem to be imagining an argument here.

Re: Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

#102
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an issue because it does two things: 1. Favors certain types of businesses that can more readily arbitrage their domicile (e.g. Apple, Google). 2. Creates an incentive for companies to pay accountants and lawyers a large amount of money to find ways to engage in #1. All of this money is, in economic terms, deadweight loss. If you look at the effective tax rates companies were paying before this change, they were…

"2. Creates an incentive for companies to pay accountants and lawyers a large amount of money to find ways to engage in #1. All of this money is, in economic terms, deadweight loss." I would argue that is not an issue because that happens anyway. There is not, nor will there ever be a tax point where these huge companies don't attempt to get out of paying taxes.

Not true. Complexity in the tax code incentivizes gaming expenditures. Companies invest in things that generate return. When the gain from investing in accountants exceeds the cost of those accountants and their sheltering strategies, they invest in it. A good tax code makes the gain to be had from loopholes smaller than the cost of implementing those loopholes. This corporate tax rate harmonization was one step among many more that ought to be taken along the path to doing that.

Re: Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

#103
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There aren’t even a preponderance of correlative data that shows a link between tax cuts and economic growth—except where economic growth is defined as a disproportionate increase in wealth concentration in ever smaller percentages of the population. I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't…

> I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't mean much. You do realize you’re stating exactly what I did in slightly different wording? Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank…

> Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank accounts of an increasingly smaller proportion of the population?

You say it is proven, but actually the study linked to by the article you mentioned from The Atlantic does not claim that. In the summary, it says: "The evidence does not suggest necessarily a relationship between tax policy with regard to the top tax rates and the size of the economic pie, but there may be a relationship to how the economic pie is sliced." And indeed the study's data does not prove any of this, so it is correct in not making that claim.

> If you do, on what sensible grounds can you criticize the government for paying up? The government is obeying the rules of this capitalist system.

The government also decided that the system would be this particular not very capitalist system, where it pays contractors for anything at all. That is what it ought to be criticized for.

> Even if it always was required to choose the cheapest bid, one could still allege that is waste. At which point, your ideology is blaming the government for “wasting” resources when there are no other options, and—with no evidence provided—concludes the answer is to starve the government of resources to use for the public good.

There is at least one other option: not having the government choose any bid at all, cheapest or not. And there is an even better option: not having a government in the first place.

> Is there proof that raising taxes causes economic growth? No. That claim is not made.

It has been made by dnomad: "There is very convincing evidence that higher taxes and greater government spending do lead to long term economic growth."

> What is shown is that cutting taxes does not spur economic growth, as those who advocate for that idea claim.

The study does not claim that it shows this, and if it did it would be wrong as it presents no evidence that this is the case.

Re: Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

#104
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't mean much. You do realize you’re stating exactly what I did in slightly different wording? Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank…

>Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank accounts of an increasingly smaller proportion of the population? Economic growth is nominally defined as increase in GDP. Hopefully we don't have to keep doing this dance. >Nothing in my comment faults individuals for maximizing their potential gains under a…

I have so far been assuming you are being genuine in this little exchange of ideas. However, it's becoming difficult to have a productive conversation, as you keep commenting in circles without actually sticking to any particular point you've made, making cheap, insulting shots at those who are engaging with you, and don't appear to understand the points being raised directly to your claims.

> Economic growth is nominally defined as increase in GDP. Hopefully we don't have to keep doing this dance.

Right. This has been assumed as the definition we're targeting. Oddly, you've now twice selected two side comments I've made regarding what economic growth is not (for the purposes of this conversation), and rebutted/disputed them as if I was asserting that defined what economic growth is. Which is leading us, as I said, in circles. If you're not disagreeing, why are you selecting & rebutting as if you disagree?

> This is your comment - "If waste is something you find especially onerous, shouldn’t we start by pointing the finger at the private companies who submit “wasteful” bids/invoices?"

Right. Do I need to explain that individuals are not the same as private companies? Again, you've selected something as if there is disagreement here, but have either failed to explain that disagreement, or have failed to recognize you're speaking right past each point I make, assuming we disagree.

> The sensible ground is the fact that allocation of government resources is influenced by lobbying and other special interests. Not to mention governments' own waste (e.g. government employees abusing government credit cards or the $2 million intern and about a million other things).

Ah, yes. We definitely agree that lobbying and special interests influence government spending. So, because lobbying and special interest groups influence allocation of public resources, the government should just not pay when they receive an invoice? Moreover, to stick with your other examples of waste--which I'd would seriously love to be linked to some information on, again--your conclusion is the government should, again, just not pay? Should private companies who suffer employees abusing corporate credit cards just not pay their invoices? Should a $2M intern at a private corporation be a valid excuse for not paying a corporate bill?

Let me remind you that my question was specifically about sensible grounds for criticizing the government for paying invoices that were the result of winning bids that were voluntarily submitted by a private company. You have already asserted that those who submit the bids cannot be criticized for their inflated bids--even though it is those bids that result in what you consider to be wasteful spending. So, if no responsibility for waste lies with those who bid exorbitant rates on government contracts--after all, you say, they cannot be faulted for maximizing their gains under a capitalist system (a system the government also exists under!)--are you suggesting the government should just default on its payments to those private companies after accepting the bids? Are you suggesting the government should be more responsible for reducing waste by means of violating and subverting contracts?

> That is hilarious. No other options but to buy more F35s?

Boy, it is especially tiresome to have to spell out every little nuance of a statement the way you are cherry-picking them out of their contexts. The "no other options" was provided within the specific context of a possible requirement to choose the cheapest available bid in a bidding process. Thus, if the executive branch of government is, say, executing a law that, in their view, requires them to contract a private company in order to fulfill execution of a law duly passed by the legislature, and they are also required by law to choose the cheapest bid, there are no other options but to choose the cheapest bid.

You may not believe it, but I'm in wholehearted agreement that we need exactly 0 more F35s.

> You are too naive if you think the system will magically reform itself or that people can be trained to be frugal with someone elses money when they have zero incentive to do so.

It seems to me that you're reading an awful lot into my comments that I am not saying. I've suggested no possibility of magical self-reform of a broken system. I'd certainly suggest it is entirely possible to craft incentives that lead to people being trained to be frugal with resources that are not (fully, but partially) theirs. This is not naivety; it happens daily in the private sector. The actors there were certainly trained to steward corporate finances as frugally as possible--it seems perhaps they're missing some training on being mindful of participating in the stewardship of public finances as a citizen who partially owns those public finances, and that it's possible to be mindful even while acting as an agent of a private company (but again, you say, we cannot fault them for maximizing their gains at the public's expense).

> Where did I claim that? You seem to be imagining an argument here.

You claimed it right here[0]. It is your original claim to which I responded (which regrettably has led us on a bit of a trudge through the ideological tenets of your "waste" trope). You claimed there was evidence that, although weak, correlates cutting taxes with leading to higher wages or economic growth.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17189018

Re: Executives Play Down the Possibility of Raises

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can re-define economic growth to mean the size of my checking account. Income inequality has its own definition. You re-defining it to mean something its not doesn't mean much. You do realize you’re stating exactly what I did in slightly different wording? Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank…

> Specifically that the only manner in which lowering taxes is proven as a cause of economic growth is when economic growth is defined as growing individual bank accounts of an increasingly smaller proportion of the population? You say it is proven, but actually the study linked to by the article you mentioned from The Atlantic does not claim that. In the summary, it says: "The evidence does not suggest necessarily a…

> You say it is proven, but actually the study linked to by the article you mentioned from The Atlantic does not claim that.

My apologies. You're right, and I overstated. The article does, in fact, claim there may be a relationship between distribution and top tax rates, not that this relationship is proven.

> The government also decided that the system would be this particular not very capitalist system, where it pays contractors for anything at all. That is what it ought to be criticized for.

You're saying the government ought to be criticized for paying contractors anything at all? If so, why? What alternative (more? less?) capitalist system would it be free of criticism for, under which (presumably?) contractors are not paid anything at all?

> There is at least one other option: not having the government choose any bid at all, cheapest or not. And there is an even better option: not having a government in the first place.

Within the context of my comment there, the "no other option" was specifically anchored in a requirement to choose the lowest bid in a bidding process. Not choosing a bid was intentionally left out as it is not relevant for determining, in the context of paying a private company for work performed, particularly if the bid/invoice for that work is at what an average person might consider to be exorbitant rates, which party bears responsibility for "waste".

I'll leave it to you to explain how not having a government in the first place is an even better option, as that'd be interesting to hear a thorough argument for.

> It has been made by dnomad: "There is very convincing evidence that higher taxes and greater government spending do lead to long term economic growth."

Sure. dnomad and I don't appear to be in any strong disagreement here about what available evidence shows. I was being careful here to say there is no causal proof, though there is a preponderance of evidence that seems to suggest a possible relationship--be that a result of greater government spending spurring growth, or be that a strong suggestion that higher taxes does not hurt growth (as many who clamor for cutting taxes love to claim to score political points).

> The study does not claim that it shows this, and if it did it would be wrong as it presents no evidence that this is the case.

The article most certainly does. They state plainly: "But it does suggest that there is a lot more to an economy than taxes, and that slashing taxes is not a guaranteed way to accelerate economic growth."

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