Veblen goods • Hacker News Board

Re: Veblen goods

#51

Post by tomsun » Wed, May 30, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #37

throwawaymath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a $25,000 Lange & Söhne. While watches are a time-honored way of signaling, I didn't buy it to show off. I've actually never met anyone who recognized it, and off the top of my head I can't remember ever even getting a compliment on it. I'd never buy a Rolex, because they're too loud :) Here's the disconnect you're struggling with: you don't value watches. Or more accurately, you don't appreciate them beyond si…

> relate to them through the broader experience of spending a lot of money on a hobby. And when it comes to the hobby of expensive watches...you get nothing but an expensive watch. Every other hobby, you get something . PC gaming? You've got games you can play, and a monster computer that can run them with beautiful graphics. Card games? You've got a collection of cards and can quickly build new decks to adjust to th…

I think of it like mechanical art pieces. A blend of mechanical engineering, art, and craftmanship. Plus if it's made out of precious metal it's a hedge against inflation.

And like art, it has a robust secondary market, which means some of the rare ones can go up in value, sometimes by a lot. People don't buy art because they get something, they buy art because they simply appreciate it.

Everybody is different. I'd pick a thousand dollar watch over a MTG collection or a gaming tower any day (mostly because I don't think gaming is valuable at all)

Re: Veblen goods

#52

Post by newnewpdro » Wed, May 30, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #47

newnewpdro wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's silly is that wearing $5k+ on your wrist is effective at influencing people. What's even more silly is your ignoring that fact. So-called status symbols are actually quite effective at getting people to pay attention to you, which is kind of important if you wish to compel them to do things.

That's why it's silly. It's not just the watches, or handbags, or cars - it's the political implication that this form of display increases your social influence, and your ability to acquire further wealth. If that's true - and it seems to be - that strongly suggests politics and economics are superficial and essentially trinket- and appearance-driven, and only very distantly related to genuine achievement or merit.…

Is it really surprising to learn you can manipulate how people perceive you by doing such silly things as wearing an expensive suit and/or watch, driving an expensive car, taking them to an expensive restaurant, etc?

How is any of this new information? It's so well-known we've even got a silly name for the "power suit".

Re: Veblen goods

#53

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

mhermher wrote: post #44

typomatic wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply cannot even imagine having a hobby that would have me spend thousands of dollars. I would sooner switch hobbies. Your imagination needs work. Being on HN, I'd assume that you have at least one hobby that necessitates a significant amount of electronics (gaming console + TV, monitor + PC, laptop). Any one of these (if you actually care about the hobby) will run you thousands of dollars. You'll probably dodg…

I think the difference is that the hobby is the thing you do , not the act of buying itself. I have a probably un-utilitarian hobby of building/upgrading maintaining my desktop computer. But still, the hobby is the building/upgrading/maintaining part, not the buying part, using the thing is great too, but I probably don't purely need everything I've put into it. So in a way, I don't get it either. With the watch exam…

There are conferences and meetups you can go to for the purpose of hanging out with other watch collectors and geeking out about watch features. Buying the watch is not the hobby, wearing it is.

Re: Veblen goods

#54

Post by asdignoionio » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #13

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #2

I've never understood the desire to own things like Rolex watches. It's a watch. It tells you what time it is. You can get a pretty durable one that'll last you nearly a lifetime for under $100, especially if you get a digital one since there's no moving parts to break. So why spend $5,000+ on one? I mean, yeah you might want to get something fashionable and shiny, but that doesn't require a $5,000 purchase. I feel t…

I own a $25,000 Lange & Söhne. While watches are a time-honored way of signaling, I didn't buy it to show off. I've actually never met anyone who recognized it, and off the top of my head I can't remember ever even getting a compliment on it. I'd never buy a Rolex, because they're too loud :) Here's the disconnect you're struggling with: you don't value watches. Or more accurately, you don't appreciate them beyond si…

You could have saved a dozen lives. Instead you bought a watch. I have a perfectly objective justification for holding you in perfect contempt.

Take your moral relativism and shove it.

Re: Veblen goods

#55

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:09 PM UTC

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #37

throwawaymath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a $25,000 Lange & Söhne. While watches are a time-honored way of signaling, I didn't buy it to show off. I've actually never met anyone who recognized it, and off the top of my head I can't remember ever even getting a compliment on it. I'd never buy a Rolex, because they're too loud :) Here's the disconnect you're struggling with: you don't value watches. Or more accurately, you don't appreciate them beyond si…

> relate to them through the broader experience of spending a lot of money on a hobby. And when it comes to the hobby of expensive watches...you get nothing but an expensive watch. Every other hobby, you get something . PC gaming? You've got games you can play, and a monster computer that can run them with beautiful graphics. Card games? You've got a collection of cards and can quickly build new decks to adjust to th…

It seems like you can't get past the idea that you're buying something expensive and ostensibly not doing anything with it. Consider it like this: if you were to buy a Rothko, you would not be able to do anything with your new painting except look at it. That sounds kind of dull, right? It is dull - unless, of course, you love art, and Rothko in particular. Maybe you also happen to be part of a community of art enthusiasts who similarly love Rothko's work. Maybe you like to get into spirited debates about it.

So it is with watches (or anything else, really). You think that the enjoyment of a watch is simply having it, but that's not how the hobby is enjoyed by its enthusiasts. Watches like this are enjoyed by talking with other collectors, admiring the movement, geeking out over the features ("complications") built into the watch, commiserating over ingroup gossip, etc.

It's not for everyone, and I don't blame people for not "getting" watches! The subculture might be somewhat inscrutable from the outside, and it can be easily dismissed as an idle fancy for the rich, but there is a lot more depth to it than what you're seeing.

Re: Veblen goods

#56

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:16 PM UTC

asdignoionio wrote: post #54

throwawaymath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a $25,000 Lange & Söhne. While watches are a time-honored way of signaling, I didn't buy it to show off. I've actually never met anyone who recognized it, and off the top of my head I can't remember ever even getting a compliment on it. I'd never buy a Rolex, because they're too loud :) Here's the disconnect you're struggling with: you don't value watches. Or more accurately, you don't appreciate them beyond si…

You could have saved a dozen lives. Instead you bought a watch. I have a perfectly objective justification for holding you in perfect contempt. Take your moral relativism and shove it.

False dichotomy. A person who can afford to spend $25K on a watch usually has some more money left after they bought the watch. You have no idea what throwawaymath does with the rest of his/her money.

Maybe your judgementalism is as much a problem as their relativism?

And, by the way, the point about "relativism" wasn't about moral relativism at all.

Re: Veblen goods

#57

Post by Fins » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #46

moate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're all fools! All you need is a good stick and the sun's light and you can tell the time of day! Wasting 30 dollars on a watch! Joking aside, there are people who refuse to ascribe anything BUT utilitarian value to things as a sort of anti-consumerist view. Going to be hard to convert them.

Expensive mechanical watches don't work very well. For all the marketing written about craftsmanship and history and so on, the harsh truth is that they're not nearly as good as keeping time as a cheap digital watch with a quartz crystal. (Casios are rated between and 1 and 0.5 secs/day, while a Rolex Chronometer is rated to 2 secs/day. High end quartz watches that cost thousands can be rated to 5 secs/yr. Of course…

Does 2 seconds a day vs. 1 second a day really matter to you, or most people?

There certainly is signaling for many people's purchases of high-end watches (moreso with Rolexes which are easily recognizable compared to some "better" or more expensive brands... Pateks generally are quite understated) but some people appreciate the esthetics, or the intricacy of the mechanics. And really, if you do have money, is it really different from collecting stamps (even less utilitarian value, generally) or classic cars (yeah, you can get from point A to point B, but with far less comfort and safety than in a modern econobox) or anything else?

Not everything in the world is about purely utilitarian value.

Re: Veblen goods

#58

Post by yesenadam » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #56

asdignoionio wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have saved a dozen lives. Instead you bought a watch. I have a perfectly objective justification for holding you in perfect contempt. Take your moral relativism and shove it.

False dichotomy. A person who can afford to spend $25K on a watch usually has some more money left after they bought the watch. You have no idea what throwawaymath does with the rest of his/her money. Maybe your judgementalism is as much a problem as their relativism? And, by the way, the point about "relativism" wasn't about moral relativism at all.

I don't see how any of that is relevant to the point: "You could have saved a dozen lives. Instead you bought a watch. I have a perfectly objective justification for holding you in perfect contempt." Okay, granted that 'perfect contempt' is a bit strong, the reasoning seems good to me, I understand it and sympathize. How much money they have left over or what they do with the rest etc doesn't affect that in the slightest. Does it?

Re: Veblen goods

#59

Post by yesenadam » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:44 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #36

read some years ago in the context of high end speakers: "so, you are're just packaging $500 of speakers in nice boxes and selling it for $80K?" "you don't understand. The people are paying for the price."

Yeah, sounds crazy, but.. I've noticed when new cafes open, if they're kind of expensive they often quickly get packed with trendy people. If they were cheap, that glamour just wouldn't be there.

A lot of that, and a lot of the remarks on this page, seem to have to do with a glamour of money, a faintly sexual worship of money. And the 'love' in that seems love of themselves, and not in a good way.

Re: Veblen goods

#60

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:51 PM UTC

asdignoionio wrote: post #54

throwawaymath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a $25,000 Lange & Söhne. While watches are a time-honored way of signaling, I didn't buy it to show off. I've actually never met anyone who recognized it, and off the top of my head I can't remember ever even getting a compliment on it. I'd never buy a Rolex, because they're too loud :) Here's the disconnect you're struggling with: you don't value watches. Or more accurately, you don't appreciate them beyond si…

You could have saved a dozen lives. Instead you bought a watch. I have a perfectly objective justification for holding you in perfect contempt. Take your moral relativism and shove it.

In my defense, it's a very pretty watch.

But rest assured - given your demonstrably comprehensive knowledge of my altruistic habits, I'll make a note to consult with you about which particular lives I should deign to save the next time I'm considering funding one of my hobbies. I'm sure playing messiah and saving "a dozen lives" will be even more satisfying to my narcissism than shiny things; thanks for the suggestion!