Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#231

Post by serioussecurity » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:00 AM UTC

confiscate wrote: post #91

I don't get it, why is it so hard to detect stationary objects in front of you? wouldn't that be the "hello world" of any self-driving tech? Every time I ask this question, the response is "radar as a technology has too much noise, not accurate enough to detect stationary objects". But it DOES detect stationary objects. Otherwise no one would even turn on Tesla AP at all. Why is it so hard to detect stationary object…

Tesla are clowns. It's possible to do this right, but they're shipping a product they know isn't suited to the task.

(Lidar really does matter, but also extremely rigorous testing.)

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#232

Post by wooter » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:01 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #196

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? Indeed. When reading Tesla's statement, "The Palo Alto-based automaker, led by Elon Musk, has said it repeatedly warns drivers to stay alert, keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicle at all times while using the Autopilot system." ...one can't help but think, "then WTF is it good for , if I still have to drive the…

The NHTSA found a 40% crash rate reduction from Tesla's autopilot. I'd say thats what its good for.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#233

Post by newnewpdro » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:03 AM UTC

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #96

njarboe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not any worse than the term cruise control really.

You're getting downvoted, but I agree. A commercial pilot doesn't flip on autopilot and start browsing the internet on a phone or take a nap. And that's at 30k feet where there's little traffic to worry about. It seems like a misunderstanding of what the technology does, by consumers and the media. I'm no expert on Tesla's marketing history, but I'm of the opinion that these crashes are due to drivers misunderstandin…

> A commercial pilot doesn't flip on autopilot and start browsing the internet on a phone or take a nap. And that's at 30k feet where there's little traffic to worry about.

That's rich, you may want to actually do some research into what commercial pilots do when flying before making such claims.

e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#234

Post by Shank » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

Totaled? Maybe insurance totaled, but that police cruiser looks relatively in fact from the picture. The driver's side door is open and and it doesn't look like it was crumpled in any way in that zone. The rear driver's side passenger door looks like it took more damage, and the entire frame of the cruiser still looks like it's in relatively okay condition. The Tesla is in the same shape.

I'm not trying to downplay the impacts of the driver or Autopilot here, but even if a police officer was in the cruiser, it doesn't look like it would have been as catastrophic as the article implies.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#235

Post by TeeWEE » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

Everybody is so hard on Tesla. And I do agree that the name "AutoPilot" gives the wrong impression of what it can do.

But think about it like Elon Musk would: If AutoPilot is statistically saver that a car without AutoPilot then it's good enough to be sold on production cars. Tesla cars are saver that normal cars statistically.

Off course, picking one crash and saying AutoPilot sucks is statistically not the right approach. I do agree that Tesla should improve on this. But crashing into a parked car probably means that the driver was playing with his phone, or the cars touch screen too much. Tesla should have systems in place that detects the driver not paying attention. (something better than touching the steer)

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#236

Post by admyral » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

foolfoolz wrote: post #221

admyral wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but this is exactly the attitude that inhibits progress and led the auto industry to languish in mediocrity for years. If you wait until the technology would prevent all accidents, you'd be waiting forever.

tell this to the families of the people who have died

We don't yet have evidence that Tesla's using Autopilot are any less safe than human drivers. We do have plenty of examples of traditional auto makers negligently ignoring safety regulations, manufacturing faulty vehicles and also causing fatalities. But somehow we don't hear the same pleas for sympathy for those souls.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#237

Post by wooter » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:05 AM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #214

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Move fast and break things" is probably the worst philosophy to sweep over SV. It encourages a worldview where externalities that potentially break laws and maim or kill other people should be disregarded in the pursuit of "progress" and profits. But it's nice to see the HN community finally start to come to this realization

"Move fast and break things" was never meant for actual real world physical things (or laws). It was a mantra that encouraged breaking sacred cows and assumptions but has been bastardized and vilified by the anti-big tech crowd. Obviously you can be a little more lax on your production quality if you're building inane web apps rather than rocket ships or medical devices.

not to mention that autopilot has demonstrably reduced the crash rate by 40% so it really is just vilification from a desire for retribution without consideration of actual impact

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#238

Post by TeeWEE » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:06 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

Well if AutoPilot is statistically saver then a human pilot (I don't know if it is). Then that's a reason to use it.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#239

Post by abalone » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:07 AM UTC

wooter wrote: post #232

userbinator wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? Indeed. When reading Tesla's statement, "The Palo Alto-based automaker, led by Elon Musk, has said it repeatedly warns drivers to stay alert, keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicle at all times while using the Autopilot system." ...one can't help but think, "then WTF is it good for , if I still have to drive the…

The NHTSA found a 40% crash rate reduction from Tesla's autopilot. I'd say thats what its good for.

This stat is widely misunderstood. Tesla rolled out Collision Avoidance Assist and Autopilot around the same time. These variables were not isolated by the NHTSA.[1] It is likely that collision avoidance was the major factor in the crash rate reduction. It is even possible that autopilot increased the accident rate.

No doubt collision avoidance is a fantastic feature though.

Addendum: Looks likes the NHTSA has disavowed Tesla’s interpretation of that study. They did not evaluate whether autosteer (autopilot) was engaged.[1]

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/effectiveness-of-tesla-autop...

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#240

Post by ams6110 » Wed, May 30, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

annerajb wrote: post #80

abdelm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.tesla.com/autopilot/ -> big text saying "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" + video showcasing said capability. You have to go way down to "Enhanced Autopilot" section to read the smaller text that mentions that its subject to regulatory approval, and that the driver is responsible. If you don't think that's misleading advertising, I don't know what is.

In the purchase section it clearly breaks the capability out including which ones are active/ enabled. In addition on the car manual and UI at enabling also spells it out. It says keep your hands on the wheel and paying attention to pick over immediately.

People don't read manuals. People don't read instructions in the UI. That is well-established reality. People glance at a web page or ad and see the words "full self-driving" and that's what sets their expectations.