Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#191

Post by abalone » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:19 AM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #171

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

The actual benefit is to have the car handles itself in situation where you would be distracted regardless. I engage similar system on my car before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen, or when I need to give a quick look at the kids behind. Another is traffic jam: a lot of nothing going followed by a lot of things going on - focus on the wrong thing and you can rear end somebody. Minor benefit are some…

But don't Tesla's have Collision Avoidance Assist on by default? That's a distinct feature from autopilot. That's primarily what helps out in situations that you've noted.

Autopilot basically adds autosteering to that. Seems to me that could lull you into more distracted situations that collision avoidance is unable to cope with.

Note: autopilot and collision avoidance both came out around the same time, so it's far from clear that autopilot has resulted in a reduction in accident rates, or if it was mostly just the collision avoidance.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#192

Post by userbinator » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:19 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #108

njarboe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not any worse than the term cruise control really.

Since circa 1968, "cruise control" has been used to refer to automatic throttle adjustment to maintain speed. [1] Is there some previous meaning that makes you think it misleading? Because I've never thought of it as meaning anything else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_control#History

From your link:

The first car with Teetor's system was the 1958 Imperial (called "Auto-pilot") using a speed dial on the dashboard.

More details here:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/1958/58AutoPilot/index.htm

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/58AutoPilot/index.htm

How ironic. I wonder how many drivers using that system crashed, thinking it would do everything for them...

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#193

Post by MBCook » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

ashleyn wrote: post #164

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

I test drove a Volvo S90 recently. The Pilot Assist feature almost feels like a gimmick due to the attention required. If you don't give steering input in five seconds, Pilot Assist disables itself. It basically requires enough of your attention that there's little difference between using it and not using it. It seems pretty clear to me that Volvo only has Pilot Assist in the first place as a method to gather data v…

I’ve found lane keeping assistants to be fantastic, but you have to think of them as ASSISTING.

It’s not going to drive for you. But it does an amazing job of basically canceling out crosswinds when you find yourself driving down the highway. It makes a huge difference, it makes it much less tiring/frustrating.

Going slow on a windless day? Straight street? Not that useful.

For helping with very gentle curves or very annoying crosswinds it’s quite nice.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#194

Post by aetherson » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:25 AM UTC

beamatronic wrote: post #178

aetherson wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? That's not true. It can and does brake for objects in front of you that it senses. Its ability to sense objects is sadly very incomplete, but it does (quite often, but not often enough) successfully sense objects and slow or stop for them. See page 93 of this owner's manual, for example: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_s_owners_man... (What it won't do is steer around obstructions in a lane, eit…

What is the difference between “objects in front of you that it senses” and “obstructions in a lane”?

Well, I guess the second doesn't presuppose that it senses them. But I think you concentrated on the wrong thing:

Autopilot is not designed to steer around obstructions.

Autopilot is designed to brake for obstructions.

It sometimes fails to brake for obstructions. But it sometimes succeeds in braking for obstructions. It never steers around obstructions, even if it senses them perfectly.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#195

Post by alphabettsy » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:25 AM UTC

Tesla and the driver are at fault here. Tesla for not prohibiting operation on the types of roadways where it is not designed to be used and the driver for using it where it’s not designed to be used.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#196

Post by userbinator » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot?

Indeed. When reading Tesla's statement,

"The Palo Alto-based automaker, led by Elon Musk, has said it repeatedly warns drivers to stay alert, keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicle at all times while using the Autopilot system."

...one can't help but think, "then WTF is it good for, if I still have to drive the car myself while using it?"

Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself.

I'd say the mental load is higher than manually driving --- not unlike being a driving instructor to a student driver who is OK most of the time but occasionally makes a possibly fatal mistake that you need to watch out for and quickly correct. Normally, a car will go in a straight line with no steering input, but the autopilot almost "has a mind of its own" and can steer itself in the wrong direction.

This is subtly different from cruise control, which lets you concentrate on steering and rest your foot on the brake so you can use it quickly if needed. Cruise control doesn't encourage lowering attention, but enhances it.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#197

Post by mentat » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #181

mentat wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subaru Outback is vastly superior collision avoidance than AP which probably says a lot about software quality. It certainly doesn't have better sensors.

They're equally capable according to that test, and it's not optional equipment on the Tesla.

My experience says they're not with a few thousand miles of driving but sure, whatever.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#198

Post by api » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:31 AM UTC

olliej wrote: post #6

I really wish all the car manufacturers would stop with this bullshit "you still have to be driving it" self driving nonsense. Claiming that the driver is still responsible for driving the car, while using a system designed to encourage the "driver" to not pay attention is a dumb idea, and all I can see is this kind of thing leading to regulations the delay actual self driving cars. I'm not a self-driving car fanboy…

Self driving strikes me as a technology with a hard boolean quality threshold. Either it is as good as a human or it just doesn't work.

This is a lot like rocketry. A rocket that meets 95% of its design requirements explodes, crashes, or fails to reach the proper orbit. Its damn near 100% or failure. Too bad Elon can't see this.

I think Tesla's obsession with autopilot is misplaced. Give me a solid reliable affordable EV with good range. Autopilot would be nice but only if it works. I can wait for that. But a solid EV is something I'm actually more excited about believe it or not.

I'm sort of afraid Tesla will throw the whole game in pursuit of self driving tech.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#199

Post by buvanshak » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:31 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14

olliej wrote: post #6

I really wish all the car manufacturers would stop with this bullshit "you still have to be driving it" self driving nonsense. Claiming that the driver is still responsible for driving the car, while using a system designed to encourage the "driver" to not pay attention is a dumb idea, and all I can see is this kind of thing leading to regulations the delay actual self driving cars. I'm not a self-driving car fanboy…

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

Entities like Elon Musk is a symptom of the worsening of the disease of stupidity that has gotten hold of the global human population....

It is not really surprising when our whole system of existence has the stupidity and weakness of its inhabitants at its foundation. Point is, this will only get worse. Because any "progress" along the current lines asks the common man to be more stupid...

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#200

Post by decker » Wed, May 30, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #96

njarboe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not any worse than the term cruise control really.

You're getting downvoted, but I agree. A commercial pilot doesn't flip on autopilot and start browsing the internet on a phone or take a nap. And that's at 30k feet where there's little traffic to worry about. It seems like a misunderstanding of what the technology does, by consumers and the media. I'm no expert on Tesla's marketing history, but I'm of the opinion that these crashes are due to drivers misunderstandin…

> It seems like a misunderstanding of what the technology does, by consumers and the media. I'm no expert on Tesla's marketing history, but I'm of the opinion that these crashes are due to drivers misunderstanding that the system does and what its capabilities are.

Perhaps the name "autopilot" has something to do with that misunderstanding.