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Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

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Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this might be interesting academically, I think if ageism is a problem that might generically scare candidates, then that too is the ageists fault for creating that culture of policy, and not a candidate's fault for sincerely being worried about something that is actually worth worrying about. We could say something similar about racism. "How much of a factor the fear of racism is, compared to racism itself..."…

The racist wins if he can spoil your other interviews. Let's say you have 4 interviews, the first one has a racist, and it's obvious. Now let's say you get bitter and resentful, and you blow your other 3 interviews, even though those 3 people aren't racist. The racist is happy(if he finds out) because not only did he prevent you from getting his job, he messed with your head and prevented you from getting the attaina…

This sounds alarmingly similar to something like, the terrorists win if we don't watch the NFL on Sunday while drinking mainstream American beers.

The racist or ageist "win" if they are not held accountable, with visible punishment, for their racist or ageist actions. They don't "win" through bespoke second order effects of their first order actions.

In terms of what a candidate should do, it's a heuristic. I choose to apply the heuristic of, "be really wary and cautious that self-interested commercial entities have incentives to generally be ageist or racist."

I pay a cost sometimes when that heuristic was suboptimal. But it's worth it to avoid super widespread predatory practices in a bunch of other cases. Worrying about the hyper-optimized policy that accounts for secondary perceptions of my fear of ageism seems like a huge waste, huge premature optimization effort that could be better spent choosing a simple heuristic and focusing on the up-front, obvious, primary ageism or racism issues.

To boot, honestly, if an employer gets some kind of "weird vibe" from me because I ask questions or discuss policies from an anti-ageism point of view, and this leads them to reject me, then probably my heuristic was right, and really there are internal dysfunctions in that company that I am better off avoiding.

Corporations can harm applicants and employees in so many ways that it often really is better to have a default belief that this is what they are trying to do, and take a very risk-averse heuristic to just avoid places that give off even slight signals, like if they treat you like you're weird for taking a proactive, positive stance on it.

If they reject you, you're probably dodging a nasty bullet anyway.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#182

Data-driven algorithms are discriminating based upon undesirable/illegal vectors; they are utterly amoral in optimizing their solutions. Even if the algorithm does not have access to the "Age" field, then there are plenty of proxies, like what reunion tour you liked. And the same goes for race, gender, sexual identification, religion, etc. To solve this we either need the training data to have no illegal/undesired di…

How would you make the system moral?

Let's say "moral" means "won't discriminate based on X" and the same "system" is used by everyone, which of course it wouldn't be.

So do you make up a bunch of fake "people" who are equal in everything except X, and test that it doesn't advantage/disadvantage the X's? Would that even be possible if the "system" is getting its inputs from social media?

Do you do mandate some kind of audit of the system's decisions, and require it to choose on average the same percentage of Xs as... what? As there are Xs in the general population? In the candidate pool?

I'd love for this kind of thing to work but even in an idealized hypothetical version it's hard to see how it could.

I think in tech we've already shown that shame is no barrier to hiring discrimination, and as HR+AI type filtering systems preselect candidates for you it'll be harder and harder for you or the government or the disadvantaged candidates to even know if you're discriminating.

You'll judge the "system" based solely on whether the set of candidates you got achieved the outcome you needed.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#183

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

> The typical solid dev can only put in 4, maybe 5-6 hours of actual good coding a day. Outside of extremely rare triage situations, this limit is true for all developers, regardless of age or quality of output. Beyond about the 6 hour mark, people can force themselves to sit in a chair and hit keys on a keyboard like the Swedish chef from the muppets, but it's pure management denial to believe those hours count as "…

I have recently started working remotely and dealing with my own productivity as opposed to have some expectations of work hours has been an interesting challenge.

Since I log my own hours I became full aware of this 6 hours "ceiling" in the long term, for a few days I could work for many more hours, but that would have a big price to pay in future productivity. In the beginning I felt bad, as if I was not able to produce as much as other people leading to a lot of anxiety. As I realized that my actual productivity was going up, compared to my older self and other peers, I embraced it.

Now I work 6 productive hours and to me that's 8 hours of work, my results are better month by month, my quality of life is better and my anxiety is more controlled. Everybody wins.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#184
devils advocate reasons to avoid older tech job seekers:

1. they are less pliable. they have experience st other companies and typically want to keep doing stuff the way they did at their previous company. it’s a lot more work to make someone unlearn bad habits than teach them good ones

2. If you have 20+ years of experience you should really be at the management or architect level. if you’re still a typical engineer (even senior) it may indicate a defect.

3. Our company wants people to work insane hours and maybe your family prevents that

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#185
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely never offer to work for free or a reduced rate. It just shows that you are desperate and don't value yourself. If you want to work for free, give speeches or contribute to open source or write a book. There activities will get you respected by other people. Working for cheap makes you lose people's respect.

True. But, I was desperate.

It is at times a good move, but make the offer before the rejection, possibly as being willing to work as a contractor and later go full time.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#186
post #78
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cobol/PL1 of 2050 It's already here and it's called Java :)

And probably als JavaScript.

I highly doubt that. Websites are much more throw-away than the average enterprise backend processing app, even for large apps like Gmail I suspect the churn is orders of magnitudes larger than in their backend systems started in 2004.

COBOL skills remain valuable because they're running hard-to-replace data processing systems at the core of large corporations. Java fills the same role.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#187
post #116
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Sorry to be blunt. Sure, my speed has decreased a little. But, I make better decisions which saves orders more time. And, my skills are still solidly top 15-20%. I know most modern databases, Java, Scala, Python, JavaScript, Angular, React ... the list goes on. I only claim to be an expert in things I’m actually an expert in. To be fair, I do try to interview at interesting companies. So, that could be the pr…

Resistance to constructive criticism is a potential no-hire signal.

Blaming the victim just for the sake of being contrarian is an even stronger one.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#188
I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from.

Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic.

You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design software; how to organize code. Exactly when to reuse, refactor, or copy/paste.

You have a better understanding of how the market works and the competitive strategies around product development will manifest - not only within your own product and industry, but when analyzing and choosing vendors as well (you really want to leave it up to a 25 year-old to choose AWS vs GCP?).

Sure, I've got a ton of better things to spend my nights and weekends on than writing code for free. I can also spot a doomed project from a mile a way and have no qualms about delivering a very curt "yeah no thanks" to that project manager who waddles over with some deluded hero fantasy where they carry the flag on my back for something that's probably never going to see the light of day anyway.

Maybe that's it? That's probably it...

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#189
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination in tech is dumb. I've got a dev 30 years my senior sitting across from me and I guarantee he will code circles around 90% of the devs on HN, and 100% of the new grads getting jobs at big tech (and will until he dies). He's got a huge amount of knowledge in programming, our domain (NLP), he's fast, thorough, and thoughtful. Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They are basically use…

I think the real value in recent grads (from a startup perspective) is that they're young and naive enough to work long hours based on 'team spirit' and the dream of 'making an impact' rather than silly old ideas like earning a real salary or a getting a big enough amount of equity to matter. And they usually don't have families to keep them from working long hours either. They'll drink whatever kool-aid the startup…

"Do you want to help disrupt ? Want to work with , and want to work 16 hours a day without or with little ownership? Join us, we are a young dynamic international team, free organic lunches, free Macbook, we're all bros here. Take our whiteboard interview and see if you're a cultural fit!"

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#190
post #129
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Sorry to be blunt. Sure, my speed has decreased a little. But, I make better decisions which saves orders more time. And, my skills are still solidly top 15-20%. I know most modern databases, Java, Scala, Python, JavaScript, Angular, React ... the list goes on. I only claim to be an expert in things I’m actually an expert in. To be fair, I do try to interview at interesting companies. So, that could be the pr…

Honestly I wouldn't blame age or your skill set. It seems that the interview process for software engineers is broken and I'd be willing to bet that even then highest qualified young engineers are struggling to get offers.

I don't know how you're qualifying "even the highest qualified young engineers are struggling to get offers" but that doesn't jive with my experience these past couple of years. I'm not young any more but it still feels like a job seeker's market (spoken from the viewpoint of a fine but not outstanding engineer in his mid 30s, in a tech hub)
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