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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#131

Post by crankylinuxuser »

saintPirelli wrote: post #124
andrei_says_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We now stand completely naked and exposed as the irrational, animal, mamalian ape that we are in front of the extreme exponential technological whirlwind that has made everything so complex, fast changing and exploitative that we have no option but to completely drop out or ride the tiger. Love the imagery in your writing... I think we do have an option for now (turn off your phone when you get home/go on vacation…

I can't help but feel like this will divide society. Like fast food and eating healthy. Everybody knows eating healthy is better for you, but a lot just can't be bothered. Consuming media on the most addictive feeds will be the same. Only this time we won't have an obesity epidemic, but an epidemic of retardation and uselessness.

Those that define "healthy" are usually ones you don't want to listen to. Greg Egan wrote quite a lot about the power dynamics of the word 'healthy'.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#132

Post by tehwebguy »

lathiat wrote: post #11

I much prefer how Epic Games have done this with Fortnite. And by all accounts their method is raking in a LOT of cash. All cosmetic items only, but you purchase the exact item you want directly. The items are a little more expensive than you might expect (I think on average $4-10 each) and it includes skins, different "axes" to break objects, different dances and different "gliders" that you fly into the game on. It…

Agreed, and when you experience Fortnite it makes Hearthstone look particularly like pay-to-win Farmville with a license for Blizzard IP.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#133

Post by tehwebguy »

GuB-42 wrote: post #116
Sharlin wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semantics schemantics. Most things that fall into the category of "provoking compulsive reward-seeking behavior" (that is, are addictive) are—and should be—regulated. Gambling, alcohol, drugs...

Everything is addictive in the right circumstances. There are people who became addicted to sudoku puzzles. Things like sports, which are usually considered beneficial can be addictive too. Reward seeking is a normal human thing, and it is essential for the survival of the specie. The general idea, I think is that addictive things shouldn't be regulated unless it is a significant threat to society. Gambling is, becau…

Another category commonly regulated: things made for children

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#134

Post by saintPirelli »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #131
saintPirelli wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but feel like this will divide society. Like fast food and eating healthy. Everybody knows eating healthy is better for you, but a lot just can't be bothered. Consuming media on the most addictive feeds will be the same. Only this time we won't have an obesity epidemic, but an epidemic of retardation and uselessness.

Those that define "healthy" are usually ones you don't want to listen to. Greg Egan wrote quite a lot about the power dynamics of the word 'healthy'.

I'm not saying you should follow some guru when he says that licking mud will wake your inner djinn, I'm saying eat your broccoli.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#135

Post by oldcynic »

aianus wrote: post #118
oldcynic wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you can't trade the items (and you often can), they have a perceived value, and often a hard cash market value. A value that is frequently over-promoted by the game to encourage purchase of more premium currency by the naive to buy more boxes. I can't distinguish a loot box from a scratch card -- except a scratch card must reveal odds. I'm old-school in terms of paying for games: £xx for a complete game, £x f…

> I can't distinguish a loot box from a scratch card -- except a scratch card must reveal odds. A lot of problem gamblers get in a bad way because they think that the only way to recoup their losses is by continuing to play until they win. If you can't sell loot for cash, then it can't lead to this same kind of problem gambling because it's literally impossible to recoup your losses instead of merely unlikely. Theref…

> A lot of problem gamblers get in a bad way ... by continuing to play until they win

The why does not matter. By removing that part of your text the behaviour applies equally to both.

Whether it is about recouping losses, or desiring the "ownership" of some pixels the same addictive behaviours are at work, and the same problems and financial losses can accrue.

Game companies employ psychologists and economists to try and ensure addictiveness - giving you a meaningless "almost a winner" tickets with 2 of 3 required tokens etc

> If you can't sell loot for cash

In a good proportion of games you can sell the loot for cash. Via Steam Marketplace and so on.

They deserve the same regulation and age limits as fixed odds betting terminals and fruit machines as that is essentially what they are.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#137

Post by SmallDeadGuy »

m12k wrote: post #127
SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HotS and Overwatch really aren't exploitative sure, but Hearthstone is incredibly exploitative. Unless you are so good you can go "infinite" in arena (always make your gold entry fee back and then some, on average), you have to buy packs for every expansion that comes out. Or you have to play with lower-tier cards, which some people do successfully, but to get the most out of the game or be "competitive" they will ne…

Yeah, I think of Hearthstone as a game with a $150 per year subscription and evaluate if I want to keep playing it based on that - which currently I do, but I can definitely see how many people wouldn't (and if I hadn't been playing since the beginning, it would cost more to stay competitive now)

Yeah I reached the point where I decided it wasn't worth it. Towards the end of my degree, I was just playing far less because of bigger workload and the times I played were mostly on my phone while waiting on my own for something. I continue to have less free time now that my degree is finished, and now I kill time with free phone games. Maybe one day I'll get back into it, if I haven't fallen too far behind.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#138

Post by some_account »

kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

This is all a lesson humans desperately needs to learn, and we are slowly learning it. Todays technology in the hands on these multi billion companies becomes a lethal weapon towards the minds of entire generations.

Everything the ad market touches becomes shit. They live in shit, and they feed off each other's shit, and it's overflowing everywhere into society like a pollution that has no cure, because it's built into capitalism.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#139

Post by jimrandomh »

majewsky wrote: post #117
jimrandomh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Randomized physical card packs can be gambling, but they also have non-gambling uses; in MtG, there are ways of playing (drafts) where the randomized packs are logistically important to how the game is played, and those ways of playing are legitimately fun.

Roulette is also "legitimately fun" to many people.

Apparently I didn't get the point across. MtG drafts remain fun and the randomization of the card packs remains necessary even if you remove the ownership element entirely, by agreeing to destroy the cards afterwards.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#140

Post by d0lph »

usrusr wrote: post #72
jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

But card packs are random at least. The very rarest card will be equally rare for every buyer, any time. Loot boxes can be much worse than gambling on a random number generator: game servers know the inventory of a player and can tailor box contents to always keep the inventory close to one of the many thresholds that are usually designed into game rules. Maybe some operators are voluntarily staying away from these d…

I am not aware of any loot boxes that aren't random? Are you just saying this is possible, or do you know of an instance of this?
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