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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

21–30 of 171 posts

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#21
post #8
post #2

Hey uh, I don’t do a lot of mobile gaming, but what’s a loot box and why should I care if it’s gambling or not?

A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds k…

I think Overwatch is a bad example because you can't turn the loot into real money. Valve's games are a better example because you can sell the loot directly through Steam -- in some cases for hundreds of dollars.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie tha…

> You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've se…

No, that would not be the appropriate comparison at all.

That is the comparison that is more similar to loot boxes, but not to the definition you have decided upon.

Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment value as the element of prize. Gambling requires chance, prize and consideration.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e...

At the point where entertainment value is the prize, you have now created a definition of gambling that includes both your example of a random movie, and my example of any movie.

The thing I hate about all of these lootboxes as gambling arguments is that they have no appreciation for what gambling actually is. Instead gambling is now just whatever you feel like is gambling in your gut, not an actual real legal and enforceable definition.

You want to regulate lootboxes, fine, but trying to draw an equivalency to real gambling and lootboxes is just not possible without classifying almost every transaction as gambling.

But honestly, if you want to regulate loot boxes we should probably start by regulating video game addiction because it is a much larger problem that effects a much larger audience.

All of these deeply concerned people who want to regulate loot boxes somehow don't seem to overlap with the group of people who want to regulate video game addiction though. Because the deeper truth is that people want to wield the tools of government like a cudgel to force video game developers to make the kind of games they want.

This whole thing is just a fig leaf similar to how child porn is used to censor the internet and enforce copyright.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#24
post #13

Maybe nit-picky, but this is one place (the title here I'm talking about) a properly choosen dash would've saved me a couple seconds or so. When I was reading this, I thought first to myself, what is a crap-loot box, only to understand later that the endash there stood for a semicolon. But endash is for word pairs (i.e. black--white, on--of); here, an emdash would be more appropriate.

The original article uses an em-dash. So either Are Technica fixed it since it was submitted, or the submission mistyped it.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering ca…

This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#26
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

Not much different. Which is why I would not buy collectible cards to my kids and why I was avoiding them myself (as they cost too much overall when played).

The difference is that CCG were rather niche thing most people dont know about and these games targetted at children are ever obvious and common. Meaning, people cared less because significantly less people knew you can buy CCG. Also, sports cards and CCG had known probabilities and were overall less sleazy then some of these games. They did not baited you with psychological trics and people were less routinelly trying to earn money by buying them solely in the hope of finding jackpot expensive item to sell.

There is also element of fake think of children where gamers who hate everything new and not for them use this to demonise games they don't like.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#27
Most games contain calculated random rewards or else the game would be boring and predictable. However to call this gambling it's quite a stretch as you can't cash out. Whoever decided to make those "boxes" look like slot machines spinning brought it upon themselves.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#28
post #13

Maybe nit-picky, but this is one place (the title here I'm talking about) a properly choosen dash would've saved me a couple seconds or so. When I was reading this, I thought first to myself, what is a crap-loot box, only to understand later that the endash there stood for a semicolon. But endash is for word pairs (i.e. black--white, on--of); here, an emdash would be more appropriate.

There's nothing wrong per se with using the dash, at least if you get the spacing right. If you use a dash as a punctuation you should either use spaces or - as you said - the correct glyph.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#29

Gambling is gambling, loot box is loot box, I think we should not spending time on arguing the definition, but instead limit loot box as what we do with gambling. New stuff come with new rules, may sound more resealable.

Here's the definition of a "lottery" under the uk gambling act "(2)An arrangement is a simple lottery if— (a)persons are required to pay in order to participate in the arrangement, (b)in the course of the arrangement one or more prizes are allocated to one or more members of a class, and (c)the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance."

There is also a complex lottery where the process begins with chance. This covers things like scratchcards where you choose which things to scratch off but which card you are given, and what is printed on the card is governed by chance.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/14

Lotteries are one of 3 forms of gambling covered by this regulation, so in the uk at least it seems pretty obvious that lootboxes are gambling from a legal point of view. Lotteries are permitted for people older than 16 in the UK but it's an offence to allow a "child" (someone younger than 16 in this law) to participate (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/56)

It's also an offence if your company to manufacture, supply, install or adapt gambling software without a license. So they could be liable from that point of view also, in the UK at least.

edit: clarify one bit of wording

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#30

Most games contain calculated random rewards or else the game would be boring and predictable. However to call this gambling it's quite a stretch as you can't cash out. Whoever decided to make those "boxes" look like slot machines spinning brought it upon themselves.

> However to call this gambling it's quite a stretch as you can't cash out.

In some games you can. See: CS:GO.

As long as items can be traded, someone will make a 3rd party site to buy/sell the items.

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