Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There? • Hacker News Board

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#291

Post by noir_lord » Mon, May 28, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #260

noir_lord wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the UK (not France) and I make ~3050EUR a month (pre tax), I take home after tax ~2400EUR. I've been making money from selling code since 1996 and a full time developer over a decade. While my salary would be low in London (I'd be worth at least another 10-15K down there) in the North of England and particularly where I live that gives me an excellent standard of living, rent on a decent sized two bed is US Sa…

"Purchasing power parity" is extremely important for comparing these things, especially when it comes to housing. I get the impression that Silicon Valley is a place where $100k isn't quite enough to not have to share accomodation. It's certainly the case that London-weighted salaries don't make up for London-weighted house prices. One of these days remote working will start to make a difference in this inequality.

Agreed, Near where I live I can buy a nice three bedroom house in a decent area for less than a 1 bedroom flat in a good chunk of London.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-654846... round the corner from the street where where I grew up, it's a nice solidly middle class area with decent schools, parks.

200K for a detached 3 house with garage and a reasonable garden, In a good chunk of London the equivalent would be 2-4x more expensive and in the city proper more than 5x.

So suddenly £32K where I am starts too look pretty good compared to 55-60K in London.

Also it's not just the housing that is cheaper up here, almost everything is cheaper.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#292

Post by CamTin » Mon, May 28, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #263

CamTin wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that common for French developers to get a company car? What on earth is it for? Driving around in meatspace to meet clients for consulting-firm type gigs?

I was talking about the Netherlands. Here, a company car is a normal perk for consultancy developers. Even the type of consultants that work 9-to-5 at the same customer for a couple of years and only have to drive to and from the customer. But they are usually allowed to use the car for private use, once they pay a monthly company car tax (100-300 euro for a normal car). But other tech companies are also starting to…

That's pretty bonkers. Is there some bizarre tax incentive that makes this more attractive (for somebody presumably? the company? the employee?) than just paying them more and possibly reimbursing them for mileage?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#293

Post by heavenlyblue » Mon, May 28, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

jcelerier wrote: post #192

desu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a French, it saddens me a bit to say that but you also missed one point: culture. My background includes some grad school experience at a top French university and then at a top US university. One big difference, which became even more obvious to me after I crossed the Atlantic, is that there is (almost) no hustle culture in France. Make fun of the stupid apps and the copycats but so many undergrads at my American…

> In France, the holy grail is to get a CDI (permanent employee contract) at a big company and that’s often pretty much it. Well, there are reasons for this. Good luck getting a loan for your next house / car / whatever if you don't have a CDI.

The question is, why are these based on CDI? I believe the parent is making a good point: if this is a cultural thing, the first question that comes to your mind is "why are not being as conservative as everyone else and not just going for an easy employment?"

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#294

Post by heavenlyblue » Mon, May 28, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

kolp wrote: post #157

jjcm wrote: post #91

I'm seeing a lot of arguments in this thread against starting a business in France, so my question is this: outside of the US where would you start something?

Ireland - Eurozone, English speaking, light touch regulation, strong IT and customer support culture. However the high cost of accommodation in the cities, particularly Dublin, is starting to make recruitment difficult. I've anecdotal evidence of several 20-30 year olds looking to emigrate because they can't resolve the high cost of accommodation with their after-tax salary.

Good luck hiring fast against the large IT companies over there.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#295

Post by forapurpose » Mon, May 28, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #107

forapurpose wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions are not necessary at all in any country that has decent and enforced labor laws. I suppose no political organizations are necessary in places where there are decent and enforced laws, not even political parties, but that's not how humans work. Decent laws aren't the result of generosity from those in power - decent labor law isn't a result of corporate altruism - but of political struggles between different…

This comment sounds a lot like hyperbole to me. People have a seat at the table, that’s how democracy works. People also have an incredible amount of entitlements and protection in the labor market. The labor laws in the west are generally quite good, most of the reasonable criticism you could direct at them comes down to enforcement. If you have a problem with them, then participate in your democracy. In economies w…

> The labor laws in the west are generally quite good

According to who? By what standard? And regardless of their current state, shouldn't workers get as much as they can for themselves, just like everyone else? Corporations sure do everything they can for themselves; IMHO even enlightened self-interest, such as net neutrality or reasonable tax laws, is not a limitation.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#296

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, May 28, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #206

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth is it is much much cheaper than in the US, and probably unmatched in Western Europe Business formation ( i.e. forming a legal entity, getting a bank account, hiring your first employee and getting paid for your first service) in France is much more expensive than in Britain, Luxembourg or Poland. And the U.S. is faster and cheaper still. That said, if you have the right connections, it can be a haven. The…

I costs £12 to register a company in the UK. Is the US cheaper than that? If you pay £100 you can get a same day registration, is the US quicker than that? https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation/register-your-c...

I am mistaken—the UK is faster and cheaper than Delaware. Thank you for the information.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#297

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, May 28, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

psergeant wrote: post #275

chimeracoder wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and cross-border EU commerce is easier than cross-state commerce in the US I'm curious where you get this impression. Cross-border commerce is very lightly regulated in the US. For most industries, you literally have to put zero thought into the matter.

Don’t bank transfers take 3-4 days?

Fedwires clear instantly between banks; for the end user, within about thirty minutes (to give time for approvals). (Some banks bulk wires to the end of the day, but that is a cost-speed trade-off.)

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#298

Post by systemtest » Mon, May 28, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

CamTin wrote: post #292

systemtest wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about the Netherlands. Here, a company car is a normal perk for consultancy developers. Even the type of consultants that work 9-to-5 at the same customer for a couple of years and only have to drive to and from the customer. But they are usually allowed to use the car for private use, once they pay a monthly company car tax (100-300 euro for a normal car). But other tech companies are also starting to…

That's pretty bonkers. Is there some bizarre tax incentive that makes this more attractive (for somebody presumably? the company? the employee?) than just paying them more and possibly reimbursing them for mileage?

For the company it doesn’t matter. If they give you a VW Golf or Volvo V40 they are out €800 per month, if they reimburse your travel expense they are also out €800 per month.

For the employee it is cheaper to have a company car than to buy one yourself if you want a brand new car. If you don’t care about driving an old car it could be cheaper to buy your own car and get the travel reimbursement of €800 pre-tax.

The big thing about company cars is that for most it’s a status symbol. Straight out of university and you will have a brand new car with all the bells and whistles. You don’t have to save money and it will not impact any credit scores.

And if the engine blows up or you drive into a lake, you will get a new car one hour later. At most it will cost you the €100 deductible if you were in neglect.

Also, golden cage. I know some developers that don’t want to switch to a better job without a company car because then they will have to spend a couple thousand on a “dirty old used car”.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#299

Post by LarryL » Mon, May 28, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

tajen wrote: post #243

nopless wrote: post #104

I am curious about the real number of founders in this thread? It seems that most of the replies are focused on system criticism… and it's a completely false statement. Creating a startup in France is really easy to do if you do it well. Take an accountant and he will handle almost everything for you, from the creation to the run. Man Power is cheap compare to the USA. The only limitation seems to be the motivation……

Well, I’m a founder... French paperwork is incredibly stupid (beyond any necessary explanation), and, for no employee, I pay my accountant 2800€ to handle said paperwork. Second, tax deduction and grants... There are full companies whose job is to get grants for others. But if you don’t know the right law or the right grant, you pay the higher tax. I’ve lost at least 150.000€ with that on my first 8 years, although I…

> Last, the marxist culture. As long as you earn money, you’re assumed to be an asshole, [...]

The above quote is simply false, it's nonsense, a HUGE generalization and a big exaggeration.

I'm french. And I'm 47, so I'm not (or no longer) the naive just out-of-school type...

The "marxist culture"? In France?? France is a very conservative society that leans a LOT to the "right". We are certainly more "social"-oriented than many countries, but the mindset is still _very_ conservative. Religion (Catholicism) is still quite present (even if people don't attend church), for instance attitudes towards sexuality are still pretty conservative, even if it's MUCH better than in my youth.

As for "earning money == asshole", that's also an exaggeration. What people here don't like is the people who put their money in your face (not always realizing they do so), and there can also be envy. And in the other direction: in my family there are some quite wealthy people, and THEIR attitude is really bad, they are extremely contemptuous towards everybody else (myself included) and always forget that not everybody has had all the advantages (financial, connnections, etc.) that they have had. Try to picture (a REAL story) when you are 15 years old, and your own cousin (also 15) boasts about what studies he's going to do and that you (his cousins) are all unworthy and beneath him.... (Note: ALL those other "inferior" cousins now have at least a 5 years university or equivalent diploma, mostly in STEM, some from the most elite french schools).

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#300

Post by CamTin » Mon, May 28, 2018, 8:10 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #298

CamTin wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty bonkers. Is there some bizarre tax incentive that makes this more attractive (for somebody presumably? the company? the employee?) than just paying them more and possibly reimbursing them for mileage?

For the company it doesn’t matter. If they give you a VW Golf or Volvo V40 they are out €800 per month, if they reimburse your travel expense they are also out €800 per month. For the employee it is cheaper to have a company car than to buy one yourself if you want a brand new car. If you don’t care about driving an old car it could be cheaper to buy your own car and get the travel reimbursement of €800 pre-tax. The…

While is it always EUR800? There's no option to simply reimburse their mileage (kilometerage?) ?

I.e. "You submitted your mileage report to the payroll department and it said you drove 214km on company business since last pay period, so your paycheck will have an extra 214 * 0.29 = 62EUR in it."

Actually, in the US it need not even be that complicated. If you are using your car for work purposes, you can simply claim the mileage once a year when you do your taxes. Company cars are, as you mention, mainly a status symbol for high-level executives, possibly including a driver. Even then, I've only heard about it in movies and books. All the real executives I am aware of just get paid enough that they can definitely afford a BMW if they want one.

[I use EUR0.29/km here because it is the US Federal mileage rate (54.4 cents per mile), converted for currency and units. With gasoline prices much higher (not sure about insurance, maintenance, etc) in Europe, I would imagine the reimbursement rate would need to be higher.]

Also, who pays for the gas? Do you get a company credit card for fill-ups?