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The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

theatlantic.com

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Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#111

Post by dragonwriter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99
sologoub wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key paragraph: “He neglects to mention that many of them are actually just retirees. According to Saez and Zucman, whose data Stewart uses, more than 40 percent of all wealth belonging to Americans between and 90th and 99th percentiles is held by the the elderly, meaning age 65 or older. This is what makes wealth data a tricky way to measure class below the very tiptop of the distribution. Stewart’s “9.9 percent” inc…

I don’t think that is a fair rebuttal. There has been a systemic transfer of wealth from the young to the older. Social Security and pensions get funded; universities and schools do not.

The whole she distribution gets brought up all the time, but wealth inequality is extreme in each age group. Wealth inequality isn't a lifecycle thing where it's either dominated by generational transfers or accumulation over lifetime. See, e.g., http://www.demos.org/blog/9/8/14/wealth-distributed-extremel...

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#112

Post by InfiniteBeing »

jokoon wrote: post #38
anbende wrote: post #2

Some of the points about privilege might be accurate, but breaking economic status in to .1%, 9.9%, and 90% is arbitrary and misleading. The author tries to make the point that “the 9.9%” have the majority of the wealth and this issue is as big or bigger than the concentration of wealth at the very top. The problem is that this is largely an artifact of the division system. The distribution is highly skewed, and the…

I disagree. What the article is trying to point out is that the 9.9% thinks he's not so wealthy, so he is against inequality, but he still, somehow, for his own comfort and merit belief system, likes his higher income. Trying to talk about ranges of income, would it the top N%, is pointless. You could strip out the hypocrisy like so: "I am not at the top, so I am still against inequality, but I am comfortable, but si…

There's a human tendency to want to blame other humans for everything that happens including weather events.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#113

Post by hyperpape »

throwaway080383 wrote: post #70
hyperpape wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would hypothesize that even within this 9% we’d find the wealth concentrated at the top in the “2nd 1%”, i.e., the top 2% likely make the middle class look mostly irrelevant. I doubt this particular point. The 98th percentile of earners make something like $200-$300k a year, the 89th percentile make about $100k/year[0]. That's a big difference, and it will equate to an even bigger difference in wealth, but not en…

Note that the article and comments are talking about wealth, not income. I know a few young software engineers who are likely in the 98th percentile for income but not even the 90th for wealth. According to https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-sta... , the ratio between the 98th and 89th percentile of wealth actually is roughly 5-6x. (89th is around 1.1 million, 98th around 5.8 million).

Thanks for the source.

I noted that the wealth gap would be larger, but it's still not enough to make the parent poster's comment accurate (filling in a few points, you have 93rd percentile ~ $2 million, 96th ~ $3 million, 97th ~ $4 million).

Of course, income doesn't map that directly to wealth, even after accounting for age (if your income derives from a salary/investments from savings, you expect to move up further in wealth than in income as you age). Those 98th percentile income software engineers won't be 98th percentile in wealth when they're 60 unless they save extreme amounts of money, but they'll enter that 9.9% if they're prudent.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#114

Post by phreeza »

zjaffee wrote: post #105
stagger87 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

The broader point I'm getting at is that the middle class historically didn't struggle in the way they do now. They used to be able to afford homes, vacations, college, and now that is only available to the upper middle class.

Important to note that 'historically' here probably refers to the 4 or 5 decades following the second world war, which may well turn out to have been a historical anomaly in the grand scheme of things.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#115

Post by empath75 »

k__ wrote: post #106
refurb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup! Asking someone "How much money makes a person rich?" is like asking someone "How many drinks makes you an alcoholic?". The answer is typically "Someone who drinks more than I do."

If you can live entirely from investments you're rich.

Exactly this. I make well into six figures, but only recently. I’ve got a bunch of student loan debt to pay off, I don’t own a house. If I got laid off tomorrow, my family would have serious financial problems within a few months of living off of savings.

I’m doing well, but I’m by no means rich. Now give me another ten years and it’s a different story.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#116

Post by analog31 »

LateRuin wrote: post #89
dgreensp wrote: post #11

Wait, so 10% of the county is millionaires (more or less, if 9.9% are 1.2-millionaires), and these people have such “good family, good health, and good jobs” that they might as well be a different species? If I tell you how “good” someone’s family or health is, you can tell me if they are a millionaire or not? I think the author’s intent was to acknowledge privilege, but the article is just making more weird caricatu…

>If I tell you how “good” someone’s family or health is, you can tell me if they are a millionaire or not? Yes, I can. That's the point -- the rich and poor are far more visually distinct today. Take for example obesity/overweight and marriage status. The poor are far more likely to have both an elevated BMI and to be single parents / divorced / never married

I wouldn't have thought this until I had kids, who "forced" me to greatly expand my social milieu beyond my fellow geeks and musicians.

Our kids got involved in some activities (e.g., violin lessons) that are almost exclusively the domain of the upper middle class. I remember attending a large group recital with maybe 100 kids, and virtually none of them were obese.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#117

Post by bhawks »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99
sologoub wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key paragraph: “He neglects to mention that many of them are actually just retirees. According to Saez and Zucman, whose data Stewart uses, more than 40 percent of all wealth belonging to Americans between and 90th and 99th percentiles is held by the the elderly, meaning age 65 or older. This is what makes wealth data a tricky way to measure class below the very tiptop of the distribution. Stewart’s “9.9 percent” inc…

I don’t think that is a fair rebuttal. There has been a systemic transfer of wealth from the young to the older. Social Security and pensions get funded; universities and schools do not.

Citation needed?

Education is the 2nd largest expenditure in California:

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_CA_statel...

Number 1 expenditure in Texas:

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_TX_statel...

People perceive education to be underfunded, but digging at the data it definitely is one of the Government's highest spending priorities...

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#118

Post by surfmike »

zjaffee wrote: post #105
stagger87 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

The broader point I'm getting at is that the middle class historically didn't struggle in the way they do now. They used to be able to afford homes, vacations, college, and now that is only available to the upper middle class.

Agreed that homes and college are getting insanely expensive. But as a counterpoint, a higher % of the population own homes and go to college than in decades past (though certainly accruing higher debt than was needed before).

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#119

Post by 5DFractalTetris »

zjaffee wrote: post #105
stagger87 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

The broader point I'm getting at is that the middle class historically didn't struggle in the way they do now. They used to be able to afford homes, vacations, college, and now that is only available to the upper middle class.

Simply untrue. Do not change the definition of middle class. A single-wide prefab of real lumber for a family of three costs a year of wage or two for a high school graduate. Resourceful individuals can develop land cooperatives. Vacations and college aren't strictly necessary for many, nor particularly unattainable. A road trip anywhere in the USA or continental Europe is nearly free, and a four-year degree at a State U in eight years will barely touch the discretionary income of the sort of individual who has decided to pursue that objective.

The idea of a "middle-class struggle" is confused with changing standards and lifestyles of the middle class. Certainly the regular use of jet airplanes, hotel accommodations, and full-service dining may be out of reach for some, but an urban-agrarian lifestyle with the use of a motorcar and modern conveniences such as electricity and indoor plumbing is cheaper and more accessible than ever.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#120

Post by slg »

stagger87 wrote: post #81
zjaffee wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

This is nothing specifically against you or your comment, but it highlights the problem with how we talk about these things. A single 25 year old making $75k in the suburbs of Youngstown, Ohio is in no way comparable to a family of 4 making $75k living in the San Francisco. We really should frame the numbers in relation to the per capita poverty line for that city/region. For example, middle class should be something approximating 2x-5x the per capita poverty line rather than any specific dollar amount.
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