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The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

theatlantic.com

101–110 of 245 posts

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#101
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

Yep, you see it a lot in San Francisco (I've noticed it creeps into my mind a lot more frequently than I'd like to admit). The thing is, it's like the boiling a frog in water analogy. You get desensitized to it. I tend to work with salespeople, so there's a tendency to get flashier things than a lot of my programming friends, but it manifests in things like always having the latest iPhone (or it's Android equivalent)…

It’s relative on how you define wealth really - ability to provide stability in the form of a mortgage, or amount of money you make.

I feel like in SF or any big expensive city owning a home is not something for the middle or upper middle class - there’s a point that no matter how many brunches or vacations you can take, you can’t trade them for a house except in an area where you’ll be basically going down in economic and social class (live out in Tracy or something, have a 2 hour one way commute, far fewer vacations etc). The trade off for that “stability” isn’t one that a lot of people currently renting think is a good deal. IMO the best way to do it is keep on renting while putting as much money in investments and retirement funds as one can, with the idea of retiring somewhere else, or only buying if you get a windfall.

But I’m terms of lifestyle, those in that 9.9% have a far richer one than the rest, but they don’t have the long term security of owning their own home.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who "just has money" and doesn't control capital? 1. The vast majority of middle class wealth is locked up in (non-investment) housing. That money provides a roof and access to quality education, but in almost all cases, it's not being efficiently deployed as capital. 2. Whatever remaining money that is deployed as capital, is not done so in a way that implies control over their chosen investments. Think "majority…

> The vast majority of middle class wealth is locked up in (non-investment) housing. There are literally 0 people I know who think owning a house is not an investment. If you're trying to make a distinction between income generating assets and assets that don't generate income, you're just digging yourself into a hole - housing doesn't generate income, but it does save cost - namely rental cost. In that sense, it is…

> There are literally 0 people I know who think owning a house is not an investment.

I thought of my house as a "use asset", like a car. It's nice when the house appreciates. But I couldn't sell it and "cash out" if I had to use the proceeds to buy another house. But, as you said, it saved on rental costs.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#103
post #86

If you pick 4.73% or 17.23% as the cutoff point you will reach the same conclusions, the numbers behave as you would expect. I read a similar article once that focused on the top 20% by income, this one focuses on top 10% by wealth... The reality is that there is no "aristocratic cutoff point" - people get richer (and their incomes go up) faster smoothly as you go towards the right on the curve. I don't understand wh…

Most readers aren't in the 1%, but most (Atlantic Monthly) readers are in the 10%. Articles about the 1% are about "them"; articles about the 10% are about "us". That's a reasonable premise for an article: move the goalpost and show what it's like to be on the other side of it.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#104
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

In a given area, someone making 35k and someone making 100k have very different options at their disposal.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#105
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

Roughly 40% of households have an income between 35k and 100k. This makes your statement that "there is hardly a middle class" absurdly wrong.

The broader point I'm getting at is that the middle class historically didn't struggle in the way they do now. They used to be able to afford homes, vacations, college, and now that is only available to the upper middle class.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#106
post #55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. What the article is trying to point out is that the 9.9% thinks he's not so wealthy, so he is against inequality, but he still, somehow, for his own comfort and merit belief system, likes his higher income. Trying to talk about ranges of income, would it the top N%, is pointless. You could strip out the hypocrisy like so: "I am not at the top, so I am still against inequality, but I am comfortable, but si…

Yup! Asking someone "How much money makes a person rich?" is like asking someone "How many drinks makes you an alcoholic?". The answer is typically "Someone who drinks more than I do."

If you can live entirely from investments you're rich.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? That's entirely incorrect. There's definitely a middle class that isn't working paycheck to paycheck but can't afford million dollar homes, vacas and college for their kids.

To me the point is that "other middle class" you mention, call it lower middle class, is shrinking, falling into the lower class. Because of loss of decent paying factory jobs, retail shrinking, etc. If you are an adult today without special education, it's really hard to have a decent lifestyle. Most of my friends are programmers or teachers, and they most all of them have decent jobs. The teachers are increasingly…

> Software engineers are more fortunate.

We are, I earn significantly more than my partner who has a degree and I don't have a degree.

It's one of the last fields that without a degree you can still earn a good living if you can break into it somehow (in my case it was side gigs/contracting to crappy full time position to none-crappy full time position to decent full time position).

Though I'm in the UK, I gather the degree requirement is a harder line in the US, also worth noting that by and large university education has had no correlation with programmer ability (in business settings) in my experience, I've met good/bad with degree/without degree.

Interestingly the one correlation I have observed is how fascinating people find the field when they are children, young geeks become older geeks.

On an unrelated note, this is why I think the programs that encourage young girls to get into computing/programming are the ones with the best likely RoI in terms of re-balancing the field.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#108
This was a very long article so it doesn't surprise me that most people are commenting on the 9.9% figure while missing the authors point. I've seen a similar point made several times recently and it goes something like this:

The "true elites" have constructed a social and economic system that syphons off the majority of wealth. The "wannabe elites" at the top of the remaining pile are actually complicit servants of the elite (who cares if it is 9%, 11% or whatever). These wannabes enjoy their privileges but realize their position is precarious. Their anxiety at losing this position makes them more eager servants to the elites and they become highly protective of their own positions. Maintaining wannabe elite status is more important than effecting societal change and it consumes all of their available resources and time.

The people at the bottom of the system are always upset and spend most of their time fighting amongst themselves and scheming on how to get into the privileged wannabe group. They spend all of their resources and time just trying to survive. There is a constant threat that if this rabble becomes angry enough then they will violently revolt. The elites like to remind the wannabes that when the pitchforks come out then it will be for the wannabes, those soft/weak knowledge workers who are unable to fly to their second home in Europe. So, it is really in the wannabes best interest to quell the dissent.

In this narrative, the alliance between the insanely rich and the dirt poor makes sense. The real elites let the educated wannabes know they have their finger on the button. They do so in subtle think pieces in the kind of magazines the rabble won't read. Don't forget, your comfortable lifestyle is predicated on serving the elites. If individually you rebel then you will lose your privileges. If en-masse you rebel then there will be a violent revolt directed at you. Good luck finding a way out of all of this is what the author leaves us with.

The wannabes are the dupes in a con-game. We think we are in on the con and yet we also realize that if things go bad then we'll be the ones left holding the bag. We're being taught to accept an inherit complicity as a means to convince us to keep going along with it. You already knew everything there was to know before you read this article.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#109
Reading this article makes me think of the word choice that new button on Facebook that lets you report that a link is a "false" news story. Notice the subtle shift away from the populist phrase — the accusation is not that the news is "false", but rather "fake".

The facts in this piece are by and large true (although if you look closely you can see a few opinions and judgement calls that have calcified into facts). However, Stewart's class confessional is the essence of "fake news", in that it assumes a viewpoint, speaks authoritatively and factually from it, and ignores the gaping details that would contradict his story.

The assumed viewpoint gets slipped into the middle of a sentence like this: "Every piece of the pie picked up by the 0.1 percent, in relative terms, had to come from the people below". Read: increases in absolute wealth do not matter; it's all about the Joneses. Just as when postmodernists academics obsess over power hierarchies, you can see the hunger for power at the core of their doctrine, so it is here: when pop-socio-economists talk to no end about inequality, you can see that they are driven not by a desire to improve conditions, but by envy and by (as Stewart projects onto the Trump base) resentment.

Where is the discussion of poverty here? Stewart cares not a whit about poverty. Ctrl-F for it: the single instance of is in the phrase “relative poverty”.

Thus we get a sentence such as “We are the staff that runs the machine that funnels resources from the 90 percent to the 0.1 percent”, which is dynamite verbiage if you clicked on this article in order to wallow in your upper middle class guilt. But read closer: the wealth of the 90% has, in point of fact, not gone down, merely stagnated. They have not been funneled from, except in these relative, zero-sum terms.

As far as the “gaping details”, any discussion of inequality that is so myopically focused on one country in the global system is missing the big picture. Here’s what’s been going on with actual, absolute wealth since the 70’s: huge swaths of the developing world have been raised out of poverty. A few lucky, skilled, well-positioned, and/or hardworking elites, both in the US and abroad, have gotten fabulously rich off the new global economy. And yes, incomes for the bottom 90% in the US and Western Europe, far from keeping pace with this global growth, have risen hardly at all.

(How does this story of massive poverty relief play out for the secondary concern of inequality? Exactly as advertised in every true-but-fake screed, wealth inequality has skyrocketed within the United States, and within China, and within [insert your country here, probably]. What is scrupulously avoided by Stewart and others is that, as the gap between countries narrows, the overall contour and slope of the global wealth distribution has remained roughly constant).

If you do care to grapple with the messy data, you could pick worse starting places than here: https://ourworldindata.org/income-inequality (although you can see in the title that Roser and Ortiz-Ospina are already starting from two wrong premises: that “inequality”, not poverty, is the topic at hand, and that “income”, not wealth, is the natural locus of that inequality).

However, Stewart mentions none of this. If we assume good faith, we can chock the omission up to Stewart’s ignorance and his meager qualification to preach on this topic. If we assume bad faith, then his careful aggregation of confirmatory true facts and dismissal of the big picture data is straight up mendacious, or as the tweeter of the best words puts it, fake.

Note that this characterization is not personally specific to Stewart. It applies also to the fake rebuttal from Slate in the link above. Both magazines assume the premise that inequality is the problem, not poverty, and then they bicker about the cutoff point. Of course the 1% gatekeeps against the 99%! You could write just as incisive (and factually correct) an analysis of the 0.1% gatekeeping against the 99.9%, or of the 5% against the 95%, and on down the line. But to say that gatekeeping is the whole story is to succumb to the zero-sum fallacy. To say that violins exist merely to get my kid into Harvard ahead of yours is reductionistic, impoverished thinking that may help you sleep but will not, in the long run, win you any elections.

The wealth story is global. Progress is real. The pie has gotten bigger. Poverty, not inequality, is the issue to tackle. Teapot Dome and Enron are the exception, not the rule. Facts are messy. Class is a continuum. And to suggest otherwise is fake news.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#110
post #51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. What the article is trying to point out is that the 9.9% thinks he's not so wealthy, so he is against inequality, but he still, somehow, for his own comfort and merit belief system, likes his higher income. Trying to talk about ranges of income, would it the top N%, is pointless. You could strip out the hypocrisy like so: "I am not at the top, so I am still against inequality, but I am comfortable, but si…

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

They’re not working class, they’re the professional class, but they’re definitely not ‘wealthy’ in the sense that they don’t primarily earn income through invested capital rather than labor.

That said, anyone with a reasonably long career at the upper end of the professional class can make that transition by investing wisely.

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