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Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

nytimes.com

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Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#151

Post by jacquesm »

ekianjo wrote: post #95
jbronn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abuse of the workforce didn't start in 1940 and end in 1979. Some labor innovations you may enjoy: - Weekends (40 hour week) - Minimum wage - No child labor - Workers compensation - Not being massacred by your employer¹ Don't be so glib about the necessity of unions -- the Fair Labor Standards Act was written with blood. ¹ See, e.g. , the Ludlow Massacre, the Thibodaux Massacre, Battle of Blair Mountain.

There is poor evidence to support your points. And what about Switzerland that has very low union membership, have pretty much 40 hours weeks, no child labor, and the highest compensation across Europe despite having no minimum wage? It does not add up if we follow your narrative.

Switzerland is an exceptional country that has a political system far removed from the rest of the world. Democracy in Switzerland is so direct that there is a much higher level of engagement of the voters with the issues at stake.

You can't take something that works in Switzerland out of that context and then apply it to some other country with the arguement 'it works in Switzerland'.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#153

Post by geezerjay »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #132
geezerjay wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes because that’s how laws work Again, you clearly have no idea about what you're talking about. It's quite obvious that a law means nothing if you have no way to enforce it or if there are serious repercussions if you try. The moment a lone employee acting alone creates a problem for his immediate supervisors or higher ups, he singles himself out as a target. In jurisdictions that follow an at-will employment doc…

How can you accuse me of not knowing how labor laws work, and then try to suggest that it is up to employers to enforce employment law/regulation? It is employers role to comply with the law, the department of labor enforces it. You don’t need your employers permission to report law violations to the department of labor.

> How can you accuse me of not knowing how labor laws work, and then try to suggest that it is up to employers to enforce employment law/regulation?

That's not what I said at all. Please don't attribute to me a claim I never made.

> It is employers role to comply with the law, the department of labor enforces it. You don’t need your employers permission to report law violations to the department of labor.

Again, you keep missing the point. What I've said is quite obvious: an employee acting alone has very few, if any, resources to go against his employer, and in the rare cases an employee goes against his employer then even if he wins he is left wide open to repercussions. I don't understand how you failed to get the point I've made when I've mentioned the effect that at-will employment doctrines has on this.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#154

Post by jacquesm »

JeanMarcS wrote: post #52
chrisseaton wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. I've heard about 'bossnapping' - is it literally as described? How on earth does this not end in bloodshed? If someone tried to kidnap me I would be immediately fighting for my life. Do the Police do hostage rescue? How are people not getting hurt?

Because it's mostly a stage play. My father was the lead of Human Resources (don't know how it translates in English) in a bank. He was once hold for a night during a strike, with 3 other persons. The union leader told him "It's not you sir, we like you as a person, but it's what you represents that we hold here". So they ordered pizzas and managed to sleep on coaches and were "freed" the next day. No one was hurt. H…

Stage play or not if you want to hold me against my will you'd better be prepared to back that up. Really, I understand the demands but if it has nothing to do with me personally then there is no need to hold me personally.

Besides that managers have kids & spouses to get home to as well.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#155

Post by jacquesm »

roel_v wrote: post #138
sesutton wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kidnapping is kidnapping no matter how nice the the kidnappers are.

If you're being held at knifepoint by a mad man in a home invasion, your best course of action is to take the first opportunity to either escape or neutralize the kidnapper with violence. When you're symbolically held in an office for press coverage and you know you'll be fed, and released in a few days, your best course of action is to sit down and play on your phone for 24h. I'm not pro union, but is that so hard t…

No, it's not hard to understand: it's illegal. If someone restricts your movement against your will then depending on how much force they are prepared to bring to bear they should let you go or suffer the consequences. There is nothing symbolical about this, it is actual kidnapping.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#156

Post by erikb »

IanCal wrote: post #143
maeln wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States 65 Millions is a bit exaggerated but not too far from the truth.

I think the "most abject poverty seen in the developed world" needs citing.

Funny how Americans get so shocked about it, while it is quite clear to the rest of the world. Honestly when I was visiting the US the first time, I was shocked how Second World everything was. Most people live in poor areas (of course most well off Americans don't travel to these part of towns so they don't see it). Many non-chain shops are struggling. Food prices are ridiculously high in comparison to the not that much higher pay Americans receive for the same job. Even the electricity system looks somewhat like Vietnam or India.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#157

Post by kolp »

jjcm wrote: post #91

I'm seeing a lot of arguments in this thread against starting a business in France, so my question is this: outside of the US where would you start something?

Ireland - Eurozone, English speaking, light touch regulation, strong IT and customer support culture. However the high cost of accommodation in the cities, particularly Dublin, is starting to make recruitment difficult. I've anecdotal evidence of several 20-30 year olds looking to emigrate because they can't resolve the high cost of accommodation with their after-tax salary.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#158

Post by rdm_blackhole »

Legogris wrote: post #86

Just sharing another experience: I am a technical manager at a small-size big data company. We opened a new office in Paris three months ago and our largest struggle by far is recruiting talent. Despite what other comments here are writing, the startup scene is booming. Station F[1] is huge. The four WeWorks are full and they are opening two more soon. Global companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Naver are g…

Correction, there are enough devs but the salaries are too low, so they go elsewhere like I did. I am not going to work 40+ hours a week or more to make 2500 euros and pay 1000 euros of rent in Paris. Whats the point?

Also, Paris is a crime-ridden city that is way overpriced.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#159

Post by perl4ever »

nikanj wrote: post #144
adventured wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are, give or take, 65 million people in France. (Incidentally, this number is also, give or take, the amount of Americans who live in the most abject poverty seen in the developed world.) Your claim about American poverty is beligerently false. The US poverty rate is below both the French [1] and Canadian [2] poverty rates. It's also below the rates of poverty in Spain and Italy. France also has a higher rate…

The poor in France still have access to education, healthcare, etc. These rates are not comparable.

Are you denying the existence of public education, Medicaid, etc. in the US?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#160

Post by dnomad »

jacquesm wrote: post #147
pilooch wrote: post #41

I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor relies on statistics (sound like my story is...). For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov tax…

The main problem with France is the employment laws. Start-ups in other countries don't have this problem to the same extent. The secondary problem is that there is a lot of capital floating around in France with 'strings attached', great to get you going, but a huge problem later on.

People like to make a big deal of France's employment laws like there are some extraordinary overwhelming problem that businesses must struggle to overcome. This is silly. France is the 5th largest economy in the world. Finding highly educated, hard-working engineers is straightforwards thanks to the coordination between the government employment agencies and the excellent universities. Just like in America or anywhere else if you're engaged in high-tech work you're going to vet your potential employees to make sure there's culture and skills fit. And in the worst case scenario you need to fire somebody there are several agencies who will help you "transition" people out of the company. In the end the employment laws are not a big issue for most companies and certainly not an issue for most startups and small businesses under 10 people.
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