Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There? • Hacker News Board

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#41

Post by pilooch » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor relies on statistics (sound like my story is...).

For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov taxes the first year, halving them the second year. Add to this the region and gov backed projects that match 50% of your investment in a project.

The truth is it is much much cheaper than in the US, and probably unmatched in Western Europe. Now, all this preexisted Macron.

Some hurdles remain investment, low margins for companies around 20 employees and 2M yearly, they get stuck at that stage and lack of transparency.

One major pain is interacting with large French corporations, with payment delays unheard of in the US. This slows many startups down when it does not kill them. Once bootstrapped it seems to get better.

I'm not sure what a startup nation is not whether I'd like to live in it, but France is certainly in good position to fuel early small innovative & scientific companies, not more but not less :)

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#42

Post by walshemj » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #28

Rjevski wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. In French culture the “boss” is traditionally considered as an asshole. While I’m not saying there aren’t bad bosses out there, this kind of hostile culture towards management doesn’t really help anything. Taxes are awful as well, and filing them is a pain, even for a sole trader.

The social ladder is also broken. If you don't have the right diploma, no matter what your skills are you will never make it to the top. There is a real mindset of "Us vs Them" where "Them" is your boss or manager and you should despise them no matter what. I have left France 5 years ago due to those issues, I am now much happier in a country where your skills come first and nobody cares what you did before so long a…

No change then years ago I interviewed with a uk subsidiary of a French company traveling 3-4 hours down to the south coast to do that.

When they found I had not been to university - they looked at me like I had just taken a dump on the floor.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#43

Post by Rjevski » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:13 PM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #28

Rjevski wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. In French culture the “boss” is traditionally considered as an asshole. While I’m not saying there aren’t bad bosses out there, this kind of hostile culture towards management doesn’t really help anything. Taxes are awful as well, and filing them is a pain, even for a sole trader.

The social ladder is also broken. If you don't have the right diploma, no matter what your skills are you will never make it to the top. There is a real mindset of "Us vs Them" where "Them" is your boss or manager and you should despise them no matter what. I have left France 5 years ago due to those issues, I am now much happier in a country where your skills come first and nobody cares what you did before so long a…

Totally agreed, and I left France as well for similar reasons.

As an anecdote, even with my current experience (mid-range backend engineer) I would be struggling to get any IT job in France (because I didn't spend 5 years in higher education, which for them would trump my actual experience), and if I do get one by some miracle I'd be paid around the same that an intern would make in my current country (UK).

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#44

Post by walshemj » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:13 PM UTC

keyle wrote: post #22

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #11

Hiring and firing people in France is particularly hard. Most companies do not scale beyond 10 employees as after this threshold the regulatory burden increases dramatically. Taxes on small to medium businesses are downright confiscatory. Most French people still see business owners as exploiters of their workers.

Yep you've highlighted the main issues here. Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. Don't get me wrong, unions were vital in the 40-70's as there was a clear abuse of the workforce. But today, the workforce can't wrap their heads around how a balance sheet works. And all those social laws make hiring and firing very hard,…

Really you know the definition of a low key civilised union strike is in the US "no ones been shot at yet"

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#45

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

pilooch wrote: post #41

I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor relies on statistics (sound like my story is...). For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov tax…

> The truth is it is much much cheaper than in the US, and probably unmatched in Western Europe

Business formation (i.e. forming a legal entity, getting a bank account, hiring your first employee and getting paid for your first service) in France is much more expensive than in Britain, Luxembourg or Poland. And the U.S. is faster and cheaper still.

That said, if you have the right connections, it can be a haven. There is a lot of inefficiency in the French economy. And it contains an incredibly well-educated and commercially-reasonable population.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#46

Post by Rjevski » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #42

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social ladder is also broken. If you don't have the right diploma, no matter what your skills are you will never make it to the top. There is a real mindset of "Us vs Them" where "Them" is your boss or manager and you should despise them no matter what. I have left France 5 years ago due to those issues, I am now much happier in a country where your skills come first and nobody cares what you did before so long a…

No change then years ago I interviewed with a uk subsidiary of a French company traveling 3-4 hours down to the south coast to do that. When they found I had not been to university - they looked at me like I had just taken a dump on the floor.

No change - if anything, it's even worse, as the education requirement now means everyone has a degree (even though they might not have the passion nor the actual skill for it), and since the requirement no longer works as a filter for good candidates (I'd argue it never really worked, but now it's even worse) they are now requiring education and experience (for the same pay an intern would get in the UK).

Even assuming you have a degree, how are you supposed to get the experience when pretty much all the jobs require previous experience? And no, the trick of applying despite not having experience and making up for it at the interview doesn't work - job requirements are very rigid in France; either you'll get rejected right at the start, or if you do make it through all the interviews they will still reject you at the end once they find out (and possibly even consider you as a fraud for applying anyway despite not having the experience).

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#47

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:18 PM UTC

keyle wrote: post #22

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #11

Hiring and firing people in France is particularly hard. Most companies do not scale beyond 10 employees as after this threshold the regulatory burden increases dramatically. Taxes on small to medium businesses are downright confiscatory. Most French people still see business owners as exploiters of their workers.

Yep you've highlighted the main issues here. Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. Don't get me wrong, unions were vital in the 40-70's as there was a clear abuse of the workforce. But today, the workforce can't wrap their heads around how a balance sheet works. And all those social laws make hiring and firing very hard,…

> Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population.

I've heard about 'bossnapping' - is it literally as described? How on earth does this not end in bloodshed? If someone tried to kidnap me I would be immediately fighting for my life. Do the Police do hostage rescue? How are people not getting hurt?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#48

Post by Rjevski » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

chillidoor wrote: post #31

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #11

Hiring and firing people in France is particularly hard. Most companies do not scale beyond 10 employees as after this threshold the regulatory burden increases dramatically. Taxes on small to medium businesses are downright confiscatory. Most French people still see business owners as exploiters of their workers.

I wonder how big the contractor market is in France. I mean, contractors are easy to hire and fire so it could be a good compromise (at least in the short term).

Being a sole trader is a pain in France, and the taxes are outright robbery. The taxman feels like "hold on, this guy is actually making money... let me add a few zeros to his taxes to make sure he goes down!".

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#49

Post by jbronn » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

keyle wrote: post #22

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #11

Hiring and firing people in France is particularly hard. Most companies do not scale beyond 10 employees as after this threshold the regulatory burden increases dramatically. Taxes on small to medium businesses are downright confiscatory. Most French people still see business owners as exploiters of their workers.

Yep you've highlighted the main issues here. Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. Don't get me wrong, unions were vital in the 40-70's as there was a clear abuse of the workforce. But today, the workforce can't wrap their heads around how a balance sheet works. And all those social laws make hiring and firing very hard,…

Abuse of the workforce didn't start in 1940 and end in 1979. Some labor innovations you may enjoy:

  - Weekends (40 hour week)
  - Minimum wage
  - No child labor
  - Workers compensation
  - Not being massacred by your employer¹

Don't be so glib about the necessity of unions -- the Fair Labor Standards Act was written with blood.

¹ See, e.g., the Ludlow Massacre, the Thibodaux Massacre, Battle of Blair Mountain.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#50

Post by auganov » Sun, May 27, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

benwilber0 wrote: post #7

I don't know much about the startup landscape in France (or anywhere in the EU), but I've always heard that it is difficult to incorporate a small company and hire employees due to large regulatory/bureaucracy hurdles. The "move fast, break things" pattern of setting up a Delaware LLC and getting an angel seed in a matter of days/weeks really just doesn't work. Can anyone comment on this? Is this way off base?

Well, many private European VCs are pretty willing to have you incorporate as a Delaware C-Corp or a UK company (don't remember what's the most popular structure for these).

I say private VCs, because there are quite a few pseudo-VCs funded by public money. They're usually pretty constrained in how they can deploy the funds. People will often end up with pretty unfundable structures (amongst many other issues). I can't speak for all countries, but in Poland it's an absolute scourge on the startup industry.