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Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

nytimes.com

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Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#51

Post by altharaz »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #28
Rjevski wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. In French culture the “boss” is traditionally considered as an asshole. While I’m not saying there aren’t bad bosses out there, this kind of hostile culture towards management doesn’t really help anything. Taxes are awful as well, and filing them is a pain, even for a sole trader.

The social ladder is also broken. If you don't have the right diploma, no matter what your skills are you will never make it to the top. There is a real mindset of "Us vs Them" where "Them" is your boss or manager and you should despise them no matter what. I have left France 5 years ago due to those issues, I am now much happier in a country where your skills come first and nobody cares what you did before so long a…

The "glass ceiling" statement is true in big corporations (you'll never get to the top if you have not graduated from the top Engineering Schools, even if you have the skills).

However, in Small & Medium Businesses, the startup movement has changed that a bit and the diploma is way less important than before.

In terms of mindset, it seems that it is an important part of our culture: Philippe d'Iribarne calls it "The logic of Honor" [1].

To sum up the differences between French and US management (at least, according to Iribarne)[2]:

- French relies on the concept of honor and duty. French employees consider that their honor and rank is way more important than their contract. You must manage with this in mind, and accept to be flexible in order to show consideration. You must also explain what are the limits so that employees will not go over them. Managers must give free space to their employees, being "invisible" when everything works out, respecting their honor, but must also go on the field when it goes wrong in order to show "how it's supposed to be done" and to inspire respect by example.

- US relies on honesty, and on the transparency of a work contract. Managers must control the work on their contractors on a periodic base in order to show interest and respect, as part of the contractual relationship.

=> In France, according to this study, the "Us vs Them" should be accepted by management as long as the companies goes well.

[1] https://www.ecole.org/fr/662/VA021205-ENG.pdf

[2] http://lirsa.cnam.fr/medias/fichier/diribarne2html__12633047...

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#52

Post by JeanMarcS »

chrisseaton wrote: post #47
keyle wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep you've highlighted the main issues here. Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. Don't get me wrong, unions were vital in the 40-70's as there was a clear abuse of the workforce. But today, the workforce can't wrap their heads around how a balance sheet works. And all those social laws make hiring and firing very hard,…

> Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. I've heard about 'bossnapping' - is it literally as described? How on earth does this not end in bloodshed? If someone tried to kidnap me I would be immediately fighting for my life. Do the Police do hostage rescue? How are people not getting hurt?

Because it's mostly a stage play.

My father was the lead of Human Resources (don't know how it translates in English) in a bank.

He was once hold for a night during a strike, with 3 other persons. The union leader told him "It's not you sir, we like you as a person, but it's what you represents that we hold here".

So they ordered pizzas and managed to sleep on coaches and were "freed" the next day. No one was hurt.

He didn't liked it in any way, but what was the point of torching the offices down ?

For the record, it was in the French West Indies, where unions are far more powerful than in metropolitan France.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#53

Post by JeanMarcS »

charlesdm wrote: post #33
chillidoor wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how big the contractor market is in France. I mean, contractors are easy to hire and fire so it could be a good compromise (at least in the short term).

Not living in France, but Belgium (similar market to some extent): 99% of people don't want to work as a contract. They want a long term, "indefinite" employment contract.

This, exactly. France (and Belgiul as it seems) is a country where most people goal is to work for a government job, or equivalent.

The status of a job for government is tha tyou CAN'T be fired ! Whatever stupid thing you do, whatever you work or not, you can't loose the job.

It's also less payed than a job in a private company, and you almos know exactly what will be your income on the last year you'll work, but it's safe.

And for big companies, the union are mandatory, so it's almost the same. Hard to be fired.

And that's why beeing an entrepreneur in France is so hard and not understand by most people. Why take risks ?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#54

Post by JeanMarcS »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is not the worst part. When you sell your company, you may have to wait between 6 to 9 months to get your money! Basically, taxes are always delayed and to calculate the exact amount that you owe to the diverse government agencies, it takes an army of accountants. Even sometimes the accountants do not know what is going on as the tax laws are always changing, sometimes at the last minutes. Meanwhile, you hav…

The advice I was given, by a competent European lawyer, was to set up a Luxembourg S.A. which, in turn, was to hold asset-light subsidiaries in each country. (This is how Spotify is structured.)

The problem is, when you're resident, it looks like you try to avoid taxes.

And government doesn't like that. At all. So if you're small, they won't miss you when they backfire at you :-)

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#55

Post by [deleted] »

JeanMarcS wrote: post #52
chrisseaton wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. I've heard about 'bossnapping' - is it literally as described? How on earth does this not end in bloodshed? If someone tried to kidnap me I would be immediately fighting for my life. Do the Police do hostage rescue? How are people not getting hurt?

Because it's mostly a stage play. My father was the lead of Human Resources (don't know how it translates in English) in a bank. He was once hold for a night during a strike, with 3 other persons. The union leader told him "It's not you sir, we like you as a person, but it's what you represents that we hold here". So they ordered pizzas and managed to sleep on coaches and were "freed" the next day. No one was hurt. H…

[deleted]

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#56

Post by JeanMarcS »

zenovision wrote: post #17

I doubt that France will be able to do this - they have many disadvantages comparing to USA: - high taxes - a lot of buerocracy - language burden to attract high qualified foreign employees - lower salaries - fragmented political system in the EU - much lower population in France comparing to USA and if you want to cover the entire EU, you have to support many different languages, currencies, etc...

To be fairly honest, sinc I start reading HN and some post about burocracy in the US, I started to think that France may not be THAT bad.

It's bad, but perhaps not as bad as I thought it was (disclosure : I'm a French business owner)

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#57

Post by JeanMarcS »

gregoriol wrote: post #23
gnicholas wrote: post #14

It has historically been difficult to fire employees in France, compared with the US. Apparently they considered relaxing this policy on 2016 [1], but IDK whether their efforts were successful. Considering the Silicon Valley mantra of “hire slow, fire fast”, it will be interesting to see how things evolve in France. Will they relax their labor laws/customs, or will they find a different way for startups to grow? 1: h…

There has been an "Auto Entrepreneur" status created a few years ago (2010?) that is used by many startups (mainly gig-economy like drivers/delivery/...) which has helped a lot to get started. It's not an employee status, more like a contractor status. It's easy on the company, but not like freestyle though as abuse could be re-qualified as a regular contract ("CDI" ie. employee contract) by a judge. Regular employme…

Yes. If you have only one client, it's considered as desguised employment.

The difference is that the wellfare taxes as Auto Entrepreneur are very low compared to en employee, for the same service in hospital or doctors.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#59

Post by keyle »

jbronn wrote: post #49
keyle wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep you've highlighted the main issues here. Kidnapping a CEO because the company isn't making any money and shutting its doors is the culmination of an ultra-unionised population. Don't get me wrong, unions were vital in the 40-70's as there was a clear abuse of the workforce. But today, the workforce can't wrap their heads around how a balance sheet works. And all those social laws make hiring and firing very hard,…

Abuse of the workforce didn't start in 1940 and end in 1979. Some labor innovations you may enjoy: - Weekends (40 hour week) - Minimum wage - No child labor - Workers compensation - Not being massacred by your employer¹ Don't be so glib about the necessity of unions -- the Fair Labor Standards Act was written with blood. ¹ See, e.g. , the Ludlow Massacre, the Thibodaux Massacre, Battle of Blair Mountain.

Sorry I wasn't trying to undermine the power of unions and what it did for the population in the last decades. I grew up in Europe. But also grew frustrated by the impossible situation it puts startups in, to achieve anything and remain viable.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#60

Post by asdsa5325 »

matte_black wrote: post #12
tradedash wrote: post #2

what does "startup nation" even mean?

Israel is an example of a “startup nation”. Edit: Downvotes!? Israel has the most startups per capita of any nation. Look it up, not doing homework for you.

You are getting downvoted because you didn't answer the question. What are the qualities of being a "startup nation", other than simply having the most startups in the world, which is likely not what Macron meant.
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