Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

seattletimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 278 posts

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#111

Post by cableshaft »

bdcravens wrote: post #75
ggggtez wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how bubbles work. It can still be worthless snakeoil even if someone pays you for it.

Of course. Many have become rich investing in startups that added no value to the world as well. My point is the many arguments that this is a just a house of cards that will inevitably come crashing down, and I don't think that's the case. A bubble by definition has to pop. A fad has to pass. At what point does something become entrenched to the point that its continuing existence is essentially guaranteed?

The closest thing I've found for estimating how long something nonperishable (i.e. technology or an idea, not food or animals) will stick around is with a theory called The Lindy Effect. Generally speaking, the longer something has lasted, the longer you can expect it to last. So if something has lasted for X amount of time, you can expect it to last for X more amount of time. And 5 years from then, if it's still around, you can expect it to last another X+5 years.

In other words, most things don't last very long, but things that do last for a long time tend to stick around a lot longer than you might normally expect them to. Like people predicting the death of Facebook. Sure, something will probably eventually take it down or become the next Facebook. But it's been around for so long now, a betting man shouldn't bet on it happening anytime soon.

Now one might argue that on the day Myspace died this effect would predict that it would be around for yet another 6+ years (or whatever it ended up being). And to that I'd say that this is a guide for predicting future behavior, not a crystal ball that can accurately predict everything forever. And some would argue that the writing was on the wall for Myspace long before it actually went kaput anyway.

So Bitcoin has been around in some form or another for 9+ years, and withstood a huge laundry list of setbacks, tests of its security, and evolution of the ecosystem in the meantime. So it's probably going to stick around for awhile.

Meanwhile, XYZCoin and it's hot new ICO has been around for about five days, so there's nothing to suggest that it's going to stick around for very long and you should be a lot more careful about putting your money into it.

More info on the Lindy Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#112

Post by _pmf_ »

testplzignore wrote: post #19

> But backers insist that a local mining sector, if allowed to grow, will attract other ancillary services, such as software development, and ultimately provide the Basin with some of the tech-fueled prosperity that Seattle has enjoyed. Wow. Any municipality who falls for this crock of shit would be crazy.

> Any municipality who falls for this crock of shit would be crazy.

Bitcoin is the new monorail.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#113

Post by jsjohnst »

notatoad wrote: post #93
dullgiulio wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, aren't there laws that regulate the usage of buildings? Where I live (EU) you definitely cannot host mining racks in living premises. Just to get the higher power links you get questions asked.

how does that sort of regulation actually work? You can obviously have a personal computer. surely you can have a few computers. at what point does the government say you have too many computers?

That’s easy, when you draw more power than rated for the residential power connections coming in.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#114

Post by Analemma_ »

briandear wrote: post #85
slivym wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a really bad line of logic. There are lots of things that have been around for a long time and make some people plenty of money that are bad things. Pyramid schemes fit your definition - should I start buying in? The opposite way to pose this is: Cryptocurrencies have been around for 9+ years, and there has been literally 0 use for it apart from conning rubes on the internet. The important thing to as…

Who cares? If people want to play in Bitcoin, what difference does it make. Nobody is being forced.

> Who cares? If people want to play in Bitcoin, what difference does it make.

The externalities. This very thread is about how Bitcoin is messing up power grids and will soon be responsible for a non-negligible percentage of Earth's entire power usage (and the attendant pollution). It's not consequence-free fun.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#115

Post by johnm1019 »

I like how it is done by the utility in San Francisco. Depending on the size of your place, and your main method of heating (electric or not), there are tiers setup (based on average weather in each month) where the first X kWh are the cheapest and correspond to what they think a dwelling of that size should need. Then the next Y kWh are about 30% more expensive, then after that there is a final tier which is 60% more expensive. In this way by saving energy you save doubly - you pay for less kWh, and what you do pay for is on a cheaper tier. I think this seems like an easy way to handle these miners, while allowing non "electricity-based" to continue unimpeded.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#116

Post by stordoff »

briandear wrote: post #84
syshum wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, In America we still have freedom... ;) So no the government will not regulate if I have 42U rack (like do right now behind me as a Homelab no mining) Getting more power to your place is between the power company and property owner not the government, I can get as much power feeds as the power company will sell me, and generally they will only ask question related to saftey. Want 400amp service to your Garage, no…

Why is this being downvoted? Are there people on HN that actually think the government should tell people what they can do in the privacy of their own home? What a bunch of totalitarians. Perhaps the government should be able to dictate who people can sleep with or what media they are allowed to consume. Why are there so many people comfortable with letting governments dictate freedoms when those freedoms aren’t harm…

It being "in the privacy of their own home" isn't sufficient to say that the government shouldn't regulate it -- there are good reasons for certain activities to be regulated (that's not to say the government should be able to regulate ALL activities). I can run a sewage treatment plant next door to you in the privacy of my own home, but I doubt you'd be happy with it, and the same is true here--there are externalities that affect other people, such as more electricity being consumed (potentially driving up prices, and less directly potentially causing pollution) and causing fires due to poor electrical safety.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#117

Post by oh_sigh »

mondoshawan wrote: post #44
oh_sigh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep reading after 'unpermitted', and the answer right there in the article: "...running computer servers far too large for the electrical grids of residential neighborhoods"

I read the article past that statement, but saw no reference to regulation or ToS that states this is a violation of any statute or local law -- "far too large" is what, exactly? My problem with that statement is that it doesn't actually answer the question -- it smacks of journalistic supposition and no root facts. I can run two refrigerators, two freezers and an AC unit all day and night and push myself into the to…

"In one instance last year, the transformer outside a bootleg miner’s home overheated and touched off a grass fire, Chelan County PUD officials say."

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#118

Post by mattmanser »

jesusthatsgreat wrote: post #65
mindfulplay wrote: post #33

It's hard to explain the levels of stupidity in this. - people trading 'coins' in the same way Pokemon / WWF kids trade cards. - thinking this is actually a long-term 'investment' strategy (well its idiots trading with each other ...) - to top it off, siphoning off electricity and giving a load of shitty excuses 'it could be like Seattle's. I don't know where to begin with this Bitcoin crap; it's gotten crazy that so…

What makes an investment in 'this Bitcoin crap' any different from an investment in say Facebook shares or Snap shares? Aren't they just unnecessary digital crap too that nobody actually needs? Bitcoin has become the gold standard for crypto and many people invest on the basis that there'll be huge growth in the area of blockchain technology and tokenised digital assets in the years to come. If Bitcoin remains the go…

Facebook actually makes money. That's the difference.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#119

Post by PrimHelios »

jesusthatsgreat wrote: post #65
mindfulplay wrote: post #33

It's hard to explain the levels of stupidity in this. - people trading 'coins' in the same way Pokemon / WWF kids trade cards. - thinking this is actually a long-term 'investment' strategy (well its idiots trading with each other ...) - to top it off, siphoning off electricity and giving a load of shitty excuses 'it could be like Seattle's. I don't know where to begin with this Bitcoin crap; it's gotten crazy that so…

What makes an investment in 'this Bitcoin crap' any different from an investment in say Facebook shares or Snap shares? Aren't they just unnecessary digital crap too that nobody actually needs? Bitcoin has become the gold standard for crypto and many people invest on the basis that there'll be huge growth in the area of blockchain technology and tokenised digital assets in the years to come. If Bitcoin remains the go…

The stock market is relatively stable. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies can fluctuate hundreds or even thousands per day.

Crypto is meaningless, stock is actually owning part of a company.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#120

Post by tlb »

walshemj wrote: post #96
vkou wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't people who live in an area receive a dividend from the resource wealth of that area? Property owners in cities receive similar dividends all the time, in the form of rising property prices.

Why should people who are lucky to live near a hydro plant get cheaper power than some one who doesn't should it not be shared across the nation

Transmitting power over long distances is capital-intensive. A gigawatt transmission line costs on the order of $2M / mile. So if you put your gigawatt factory 500 miles away from the generator, the utility has to spend $1B on installing wires. They price lower near the plant to reflect their costs, and encourage energy-intensive industries to locate nearby.
Post reply on HN