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Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

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Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#131

Post by throwaway37585 » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

te_chris wrote: post #91

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #52

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit?

What do you mean?

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#132

Post by cm2012 » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #62

jhardy54 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jordan Peterson is a blowhard conservative who's had more success wooing impressionable edgy teenagers than any actual academic pursuits. I don't understand how anyone takes him or his ideas seriously.

Most of the people I've seen praising and recommending him have pointed mainly to videos on YouTube; video is, in communicating ideas, very poor for informing and very powerful for emotional engagement. This isn't widely recognized (it's not something AFAICT well covered in regular education on source evaluation, critical thinking, etc.), which was mildly bad when TV news was becoming dominant, but there was still a…

Absolutely true. This is also why documentaries are generally awful truth telling mediums.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#133

Post by ar-jan » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #126

ar-jan wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is an extreme and absurd postition from a small group. It's not reasonable that people attribute this to Peterson. I would agree that he could've seen this coming, and could have clarified what he means from the start, rather than after the controversy.

He is purposefully obtuse. This way, hard core incels can believe he means the more extreme options, medium believers believe he means wherever positions they fall on the spectrum, and he has plausible deniability for journalists.

I don't think so. The problem is you have to be aware of other things he's saying to get at the correct, more charitable, interpretation. Namely, he's calling on people not to blame others or society at large for their problems, but to improve their own life and become a desirable potential mate. That's opposite of what he's accused of.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#134

Post by arximboldi » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

gtowey wrote: post #79

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #52

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> This skirts a taboo that you can barely talk about: that personal preferences in dating are not judged to the same standard, and that movements of empowerment and positivity are clashing with everyone's free will in pursuing -- and especially articulating -- what they do and don't like. Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're shor…

While I agree that the message sounds a bit like that, I think he is right about that point. For me an eye opener was Tinder. Where I live it seems like half of the women have something like "Don't even try if you are less than 1.80cm" or something like that in their profile. I am actually relatively tall and happy with my sex life, so I don't take the offense personally, yet I can't help but wonder what would happen if a guy wrote something like that about weight or boob size, for example? (I sometimes consider opening a fake female account to see if some men actually do that...) Also interestingly, a lot of women profiles are just a collection of attributes they don't want in guys, written in a very negative language... instead of, I would expect, just some positive things about themselves. I wonder where that delusional way of looking at themselves--as an inherent "price" to be "won" by the very best in men--comes from? Are men in online dating like that too? In our society we are reflecting a on what "masculinity" means, and scrutinizing and redefining male sexual behavior. This is a good thing. But I wonder if maybe it would also help young women get an understanding of femininity that is not based on these backwards ideas that could help everyone have healthier and more equal relationships.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#135

Post by zbentley » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #125

>As for beneficial — well, as a good San Franciscan I am of course sex-positive, pro-sex-workers, and pro-porn as a concept … but it would be disingenuous to pretend that Ronson doesn’t show a lot of dubious-trending-negative emergent effects of essentially unlimited free pornography. That 5 negatives in a row? Impressive.

I only counted three; what five were you seeing.

(Yes, blatantly tangential).

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#136

Post by Sawamara » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

te_chris wrote: post #91

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #52

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

One important caveat here to add. Just as it is not a failing black kid's problem ALONE that he does not have the opportunity to have a stable family and proper education, so is its society's burden to educate these men on etiquette AND provide them with a stable worldview that does not belittle them for not being like the demigods seen on tv (same as how we should not shame women for having body image issues, but rather tackle advertisement instead).

I wont say its entirely society's fault, but we cant just ignore the problem. As that leads to Brexit, Trump,etc.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#137

Post by PKop » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #37

PKop wrote: post #5

Here's an enlightening video on the detrimental effects of porn on the brain. Porn addiction shows similar effects as opiates. https://youtu.be/wSF82AwSDiU Related: "NoFap" https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/

NoFap is of course the pseudo-scientific movement promoted by "Proud Boy" Gavin McInnes. When I consider the constellation of associated movements and groups with these sorts of things I have to step back and say "no." You have to be careful about what people you associate yourself with and also with the subcultures and thought-forms you submerge yourself in.

Now that you bring it up, from what I gather the "Proud Boy"s like Gavin endorse the no-fap movement because they view committed monogamous relationships between to long term partners as the best outcome for society, and individuals as well, and porn use as essentially a mental poison akin to drug use. It diminishes one of the most powerful drives in men: desire to find a sexual partner and a long term relationship.

The modern view of degenerate behavior where unlimited sexual partners with no commitment is somehow seen as "empowering" is viewed by many as terrible advice, especially to women. The long term consequence is unhappiness and regret when people age out of the primary dating pool, having wasted their prime years either either engaging in casual sexual relationships or heavy porn use.

Young men would do themselves a service to actually look into these movements themselves, and things like "No fap" and discover the benefits, instead of listening to porn users who recoil at anyone criticizing their addiction and lifestyle choices.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#138

Post by ordinaryradical » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

redka wrote: post #32

erric wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”enforced monogamy” from e.g. blowhard academics Are academics advocating wholesale monogamy? That’s usually the field of organized religion.

Jordan Peterson, whose being referenced here explained what he meant[0] and it doesn't seem unreasonable. It's uncharitable to jump to a conclusion here without going beyond our presuppositions. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn60-8Ql_44

It’s pretty interesting to see so many people in this thread repeating the claims of the NYT Op-Ed as fact as though Jordan Peterson is some far right ghoul. From what I’ve read of him, he seems pretty classically liberal and small c conservative, but because he made the pronoun thing an issue of free speech the assumption is that he’s some far right crusader.

Normally I think the Times is pretty solid, but they led with this distorted claim equating enforced monogamy with female slavery (irresponsibly, I think) and seem unable to rationally parse what Peterson is saying because of his infamy for being on the “wrong” side of the pronoun debate.

It’s a symptom of the age that no one wants to do the work of thinking through what people say and it’s exactly this looseness and lack of critical assessment that, ironically, permits demagogues to say and do outrageous things.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#139

Post by alexandercrohde » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

damagednoob wrote: post #11

> Did you know that teens are having substantially less sex than the previous few generations? It’s true! And generally interpreted as a good thing. But Ronson suggests that this is in large part because porn is replacing sex, and, in fact, making real sex with real woman seem alienating and difficult. Further down the author specifically mentions the correlation/causality fallacy but there are surely other explanati…

Also, male sperm counts have been declining consistently for 30 years now (they are less than HALF what they were 30 years ago). Nobody has figured out why, but the best guess is chemicals.

This could a contender for reduced sex.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#140

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Sun, May 27, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #115

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #110

"Did you know that erectile dysfunction rates have risen tenfold among young men since the rise of free porn? Correlation does not prove causality but it’s hard to imagine that those two things aren’t somehow related." I'm extremely skeptical that it's caused by porn. More men are on Propecia than in the past. Probably more anti-depressants, too. And it seems to me that people have really ratcheted up the anxiety in…

> I'm extremely skeptical that it's caused by porn. More men are on Propecia than in the past. Probably more anti-depressants, too. And it seems to me that people have really ratcheted up the anxiety in general, over the last 20 years or so. That is also a little harsh, but I agree. Most likely they did not have the means to collect data on it rather than the means at which they do so today. It also could be that it…

> Most likely they did not have the means to collect data on it rather than the means at which they do so today.

Or what they're looking at is diagnoses of erectile dysfunction, which might have some connection to drugs being approved and heavily marketed for it.

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