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GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

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Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#381

Post by king_phil »

ams6110 wrote: post #364

Facebook, Google, Instagram and WhatsApp are accused of forcing users to consent to targeted advertising to use the services. Privacy group noyb.eu, led by activist Max Schrems, said people were not being given a "free choice". I mean, that just isn't a valid complaint IMO. You have a choice -- you can not use Facebook, or not use Google, or not use Instagram, or not use WhatsApp. If you're using a "free" service tha…

Then you don't understand the most fundamental thing about the GDPR: "Kopplungsverbot" (german privacy law had that for ages before GDPR). You can't force someone to consent to marketing because he wants to use your service. Everything that is not part of the core service needs consent that can be withdrawn at every time. The core service of facebook is access to the network, not that my data is processed to show me better advertising. The advertising is in facebook's interest, not mine. "But we make our revenue from ads" is not a valid explanation. If your service was "sign up to see better ads", then that would be your core business and no consent needed. Best thing ever happend.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#382

Post by denzil_correa »

baxtr wrote: post #236
hau wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you back up such strong and broad claims with something?

Not every claim on HN needs a backup. This one makes total sense to me. In this case, the article itself shows that regulation is definitely decreasing alternatives, which in turn can lead to monopolies

> This one makes total sense to me

A lot of things “make sense” but aren’t true.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#383

Post by cbhl »

tommorris wrote: post #230
rdlecler1 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations tend to favor incumbents, decreasing competition, and thereby increase monopoly and creating central hubs of systemic risk. There is no free lunch with one-size-fits-all rule making. Unfortunately regulators think there is.

I was thinking about getting in to the car market but all these pesky requirements that I sell a car with airbags and seatbelts and fuel efficiency compliance are just there to protect existing incumbents.

Regulation can both help make people safer and also get in the way of innovation.

A more realistic example:

Regulations say cars are required to have steering wheels. They also say cars are expected to be under the control of a driver at all times.

Good and all if you expect to have human drivers. But it increases the cost of self-driving cars. And humans are terrible at mode-switching right before an emergency (we know this from studies on airplanes, as well as from studies on self-driving cars).

The two ways of solving this: (1) develop a self-driving car that doesn't need a steering wheel (ala trains under positive train control) or (2) restrict operation of self-driving cars to people who are highly trained and regularly operate cars in manual mode (ala the airplane industry).

Alphabet/Waymo/Google can afford the army of lawyers and lobbyists required to make this happen. All the other start-ups in this space had to get acquired by an incumbent (GM or Uber) or restrict their domain to something with less regulation (e.g. private land -- golf courses; university campuses; the Las Vegas Strip).

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#384

Post by king_phil »

kenjackson wrote: post #233
RpFLCL wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the takeaway I'm arriving at as well. We (as an industry) had about two decades to be responsible and hold others to account with user data online. Instead we opted to pretend like a weasely Terms of Service replaced a sense of morality. Now we face regulation because, as it turns out, people care about how we use their data and how we influence them. Not exactly shocking that we ended up here.

Do people care that much about we use their data? I mean they care a little bit, but I still think given the choice between where we're at technologically and where we'd be if no one had access to users data -- I think the vast majority would take where we're at today. The funny thing is that I generally wish companies did more with my user data. Why don't events sites do a better job just showing me events it thinks…

They do, yes! I do!

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#385

Post by eyeinthepyramid »

kinsomo wrote: post #127
ghaff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>closing yourself for an market that size will hurt more than changing a few thing to be compliant Only if I make significant money from that market. If most of my revenue/profit comes from the US and it's problematic to "do business" in the EU or China, why wouldn't I want to just cut access off rather than dealing with potential hassles? The fact that it's potentially a large market is irrelevant to me. In this cas…

> Only if I make significant money from that market. If most of my revenue/profit comes from the US and it's problematic to "do business" in the EU or China, why wouldn't I want to just cut access off rather than dealing with potential hassles? Because you would rather grow your market?

There are 6.5 billion non-Europeans, there's plenty of market outside of Europe.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#386

Post by mrtksn »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #361
mrtksn wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>not worth the hassle There you get it. If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. It's not your god given right to violate user's privacy so that you can turn a profit. In other words, if you can't make a profit by selling 1$ burgers when you meet hygiene requirements just get out of the 1$ burger business. No need for hard feelings.

If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. This is a false dichotomy: 1. Fully comply with the GDPR, no matter the cost, even if that's just legal and administrative because you're not actually doing anything in terms of data practices that would violate the law. 2. Go out of business, because you clearly are intending to do shady things tha…

See, that's not what GDPR does. Maybe In your alternative-facts GDPR, your case may have a point. I don't see why I should argue over a hypothetical GDPR, let's focus on the reality.

About the burger thing, we do not need to assume things here, we can examine the reality and the reality is that McDonald's complies with the EU regulations when doing business in the EU, local American burger shops that don't do business in the EU do not comply with the EU regulations. I hear that you have some amazing burgers in the USA, will definitely try few local shops!

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#387

Post by Kiro »

carreau wrote: post #370
kartan wrote: post #140

Business don't comply with regulations because it is easy, but because it's needed to do business. If a service didn't had a big user base in Europe, most countries don't speak English, it may be cheaper to remove the service. The New York Times or The New Yorker that even have physical copies available in Europe work as usual. I work in a gambling company and this is our day to day business. To enter a new market me…

Cutting access in Europe does not solve anything. I'm living in US but I am European. Thus I can visit any of the above listed website they are processing my data, and GDPR applies to me. So they are not complying and I could file a complaint.

You are wrong and spreading disinformation.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#388

Post by king_phil »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #207
dmitriid wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "pet law" is the law of 500 million people, has been in effect for two years (two years was a grace period to comply with it), and exists exactly because shady businesses didn't even comply with existing data protection laws. It's not "bitter HN users". It's bitter European citizens. No wonder that it's mostly American companies who have the most trouble complying with it.

Pass whatever law you want, just don’t expect me to care. This law has nothing to do with me. If you don’t want to do business with me because I’m not compliant, don’t send me server requests, data, or money.

Is that the professional opinion of IndieHive LLC as well?

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#389

Post by ryanwaggoner »

strictnein wrote: post #335
adventured wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, I believe the law protects EU citizens regardless of where they are. That's incorrect. That is the attempted naive reach of the EU in action. The correct formulation is: the EU would like for GDPR to apply to all EU citizen data globally. US sites/services with no business reach into the EU, do not need to comply with EU privacy laws. 99% of businesses around the world (most small businesses), those outside…

> the EU does not lord over the US, their laws do not rule the US. This is legally how GDPR actually works The number of people who have lost sight of this is unbelievable. It actually seems especially rampant on HN, which is kind of surprising, to be honest.

I think it's because of a deep cultural divide. EU users who are big fans of the GDPR genuinely admire the law, both its intent and implementation, and also have a very positive view of the government. They believe that regulators will try to help companies comply, and will only fine as a last resort. Whereas in the US, we tend to be fairly skeptical of government. And as a consequence, since EU users think this law is a good thing for user privacy and the world at large, they want to see it applied globally by any means necessary.

But aside from that, I can't understand how EU users are unable or unwilling to separate the intent of this specific law from the broader principle that it represents, and how other countries might misuse this principle.

If any jurisdiction in the world can pass a law no matter how ridiculous that forces any business in the world with a website to comply with, on the chance that a user from that jurisdiction might stumble on that site, AND there's any kind of enforcement mechanism, then the Internet will cease to exist. Either that or become ultra-balkanized, where every user has an identifier that will ONLY give them access to sites which are fully compliant with their jurisdictions.

What if the US to passes a law that Americans are too fat and are no longer allowed to be sold gelato (they're allowed to buy gelato, but no longer allowed to be sold gelato), and then levy a multi-million dollar fine against every gelato shop in Italy where Americans visit on vacation?

That makes as much sense to me as this does.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#390

Post by ryanwaggoner »

What if the US to passes a law that Americans are too fat and are no longer allowed to be sold gelato (they're allowed to buy gelato, but no longer allowed to be sold gelato), and then levy a multi-million dollar fine against every gelato shop in Italy where Americans visit on vacation.

How is that different from the GDPR?

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