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Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

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Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#191

Post by eropple »

blackbagboys wrote: post #166
eropple wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. No healthy person does this "just to rile people up." This is profoundly fucked behavior, and in a sane society it does, and should, lead to ostracizing. Actions have consequences.

At absolute best, it's tasteless, and certainly grounds for social exclusion, but criminalizing and especially pathologizing mildly anti-social behavior is profoundly immoral, reckless, and inhumane.

Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi. I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have the right of it.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#192

Post by blackbagboys »

eropple wrote: post #191
blackbagboys wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At absolute best, it's tasteless, and certainly grounds for social exclusion, but criminalizing and especially pathologizing mildly anti-social behavior is profoundly immoral, reckless, and inhumane.

Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi . I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have t…

Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen.

Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of every anti-human ideology.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#193

Post by eropple »

blackbagboys wrote: post #192
eropple wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi . I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have t…

Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen. Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of…

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But your assertion is not convincing. This rather is my bag; studying neofascists and their propaganda tactics is a rather in-depth hobby of mine. And the way they rely upon the plausible deniability of "actual context" is why I am happy to disregard it. Literally any other nonfascist ideology, yes, I agree. Not Nazis, not fascists. They're autoimmune disorders and societies and communities erring on caution with and specifically with fascists won't keep me up at night.

Putting Nazi shit on things you own is a sign of tribal identity and that tribe exists to break our norms and kill us once they have the chance. On one's own head be it. This may catch up some dipshits who want to offend people. But...y'know? That's OK. Don't be that dipshit. Don't play with Nazi shit.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#194

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Fins wrote: post #190
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read what I wrote. I am 100% for free speech, it is one of the most important aspects of any free society. However, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. If you make public speeches calling for the violent persecution of immigrants, there will be consequences for you. Yes, even in the US.

But that's not the question. The question is who decides, and how, what speech should have (negative) consequences. If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that you will provide consequences to those who you deem to be calling for something you do not agree with. Another one of the most important aspect of the free society is the rule of law. Not vigilante justice.

Ideally, the rule of law decides.

Unfortunately it very often is susceptible to political and economic influences. And the courts are not in the streets, where the attacks happen. Far too often the police turn a blind eye to right wing incitement and violence (due to a large number of sympathizers in the police), so sometimes direct action is the only way to show fascists and other hatemongers the error of their ways.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#195

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Fins wrote: post #181
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. What is strongly encouraged is supporting Putin's cult of personality. And Russia (especially Moscow) is more along the lines of crony capitalism these days. They do try to wrap it in nationalism and appeals to history ("back when the motherland was strong!"), but it's transparently about enforcing the oligarchy.

There's quite a bit of rehabilitation of Stalin going on, and a lot of "and if somebody was executed, well they were the enemy and deserved it". Reading Russian forums can be quite "entertaining" in a way lately.

Well, it is traditional for tyrants and despots to rewrite history to suit their goals. And it does make sense to attempt a restoration of Stalin's public image.

He was objectively the greatest leader in the history of their country/union, with a massively powerful cult of personality. To paraphrase from a popular series of books, "after all, [he] did great things – terrible, yes, but great."

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#196

Post by Andre_Wanglin »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #94
Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #53

Is hate never justifiable?

You can hate as much as you want, in private. Germans are very adamant about the protection of privacy. The problem starts if you go around in public, making hateful speeches that incite violence.

That sounds like a great way to protect those who commit acts worthy of hate from any public remonstration.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#197

Post by lopmotr »

mayniac wrote: post #114
lopmotr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The didn't have free speech to begin with. People forget Germany, France and the UK don't have the basic concept of freedom of speech that America does. You could already go to prison for insulting the wrong groups or supporting the wrong political party, and people have.

>People forget Germany, France and the UK don't have the basic concept of freedom of speech that America does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...

If you read that, you see there are so many exceptions and they're so subjective (protection of morals?) that it's pretty much not a freedom at all.

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#198

Post by lopmotr »

eropple wrote: post #193
blackbagboys wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen. Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of…

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But your assertion is not convincing. This rather is my bag; studying neofascists and their propaganda tactics is a rather in-depth hobby of mine. And the way they rely upon the plausible deniability of "actual context" is why I am happy to disregard it. Literally any other nonfascist ideology , yes, I agree. Not Nazis, not fascists. They're autoimmune disorders and societie…

[flagged]

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#199

Post by jk2323 »

detaro wrote: post #189
jk2323 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Merkel personally voted against it." Hey man, Hitler may have voted against raiding Russia but it is the outcome the counts. Fact is, that Merkel's politics is a left wing come true. Proven by the support of people like Fisher and Campino, who claimed to have voted "green" his whole life. https://rp-online.de/kultur/musik/toten-hosen-saenger-campin...

It's funny then that the left-wing parties disagree with so much of Merkels policy then, especially in the core areas of left-wing politics. Reforming Hartz4 and the pension system, that'd be a left-wing dream. A left-wing dream certainly isn't a government with Horst Seehofer responsible for the interior and "Heimat", or Jens Spahn for Health. Not all they do is clear right-wing (how could it be in a coalition with…

[flagged]

Re: Germany Acts to Tame Facebook, Learning from Its Own History of Hate

#200

Post by lopmotr »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #138
lopmotr wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what whataboutism means. It means A criticizes B so B responds by criticizing A for a comparable thing. Here, I'm trying to tease out the meaning from you and a grandparent's posts that seem to ridicule anyone breaking any law, no matter how unjust the law might be. Your particular disrespect seems to be focused on foreigners visiting a country, which seems kind of arbitrary but you've done such a poor job…

We've now wandered way too far off from the original topic. The simple truth is, if you go visit a country, you do a bit of preparation before you go. That includes any local laws and customs that may differ from those in your home country, in order to avoid trouble. You wouldn't try to bring a pocket knife on a flight, would you? Like me, you probably disagree with the security theater that has been put in place, bu…

I'm not saying ignorance is an excuse for breaking the law. If you find yourself repeating a claim, you're probably not understanding the other person. I'm saying the law in Germany is unjust. I have sympathy for the person who was locked up for 3 months for making a friendly joke. I would also have sympathy for the mother of a tree cutter who was killed because he didn't prepare two escape routes like he should have according to best practice. I wouldn't tell her "your son was stupid, it's no wonder he's dead when he's so disrespectful of the rules." That's something you might try to scare somebody with before he does something dangerous, but not mock them for after they suffer the consequences.
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