Live data from Hacker News

Why read old philosophy?

meteuphoric.com

61–70 of 99 posts

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#62

I think it comes down to the scientific method. In math and physics new theories are proven extensions or replacements of previous theories. In philosophy you do not have the same kind of proof, there is more room for interpretation. And then of cause there is the beauty and concisenes of the old texts

There is much less room for interpretation than most people seem to think. Philosophers often go to fairly extreme lengths to define exactly what they mean (e.g. by carefully describing their use of a word or term to avoid confusion/misinterpretation).

Also, scientific methods and processes are based on theories and thoughts developed primarily by philosophers.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I procrastinated my core courses and took Philosophy my last semester of uni at 22. I'm so glad I took it that late. It was easily one of the best courses I ever took, of course with the professors to thank for that. What did I get out of it? It got me thinking about all sorts of concepts, especially concepts I never would've thought about on my own. How do you quantify that? Who knows? I still think about Callicles…

Congratulations, you're the 1% who got things out of it. As a former teacher, I can assure you that (optimistically) 90% of what happens in school does not teach any problem-solving skills (and that's backed up by the literature). The 10% that does is in literacy and mathematics up to Algebra (not including Geometry, which almost no one remembers, nearly zero people use, has been demonstrated to make little or no dif…

Is there not value in a basic understanding of, say, history, geography, or political science? Those ideally teach new modes of thought, but at worse they give you a fact or two. Even if they retain 1% of what they learn, they now know that the world isn't as small as it seems, and the world isn't limited to their own experiences.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#64

This post is misguided on so many levels. It never once occurs to the author that the reason we still study the ancients is because they were right . Like 90% of HN readers, the author tacitly assumes that old == wrong/outmoded/bygone/eclipsed. She thus concludes that the only possible reason to read the ancients is to study their methods (e.g., how Aristotle wrote) and not their actual ideas (e.g., what Aristotle wr…

Responding to your basic thesis that the ancients (by which I assume you mean the Presocratics through Plato and Aristotle) were right, what do you make of the numerous problems for which they proposed different answers? For instance: - Plato's ideal government is radically communist, Aristotle prefers something more in line with contemporary common sense - Plato's universals (i.e., ideals) are objects in a super-rea…

Excellent point, thank you. You are right to say that we should not conflate the "ancients" into one monolithic category. Plato and Aristotle certainly disagreed on many key points, to say nothing of their divergence from other ancient traditions beyond the geographic West (e.g., ancient Chinese or Indian philosophy).

So when I argue that "the ancients were right," it would be more correct to say "some of the ancients were right." They cannot all have been right, since they disagreed with each other! Thank you for pushing me to clarify on this point. My deeper argument, though, is that it is impossible to arbitrate who is right from the perspective of the present. That is, it would be wrong to say that Aristotle or Plato is more correct merely on the basis of what is "in line with contemporary common sense." Of course, contemporary common sense could be right, but it could also be deeply flawed. Stepping beyond the confines of the present, and looking back to the ideas of the ancients, provides a helpful counterfactual for our modern way of thinking about things. It is precisely because the ancients were arguing about problems in a way that is different than the way we think about them today that they are worth studying. Not, again, to see who is more in line with the latest advances in our current understanding of physical, cosmological, scientific theory, but rather to help reframe the very terms of debate in which those theories work.

You hit the nail on the head when you observe that there are "bizarre passages" in ancient philosophy that "make us wonder what could have motivated the question at hand." Exactly! Your very confusion on this point proves that the whole question that Plato was addressing in the Cratylus has been forgotten in modern times. Of course, from the perspective of contemporary linguistics, obviously Plato is wrong to suggest that onomatopoeia has a conceptual basis. But is that all Plato is arguing in that text? It is precisely the framing of his inquiry in the terms of modern linguistics that does a disservice to his original thought. Indeed, the very fact that the exact nature of his question has been lost, as you point out, suggests that he may have been exploring a whole separate area of inquiry.

To be sure, by returning to such an area of inquiry I don't mean to say that "philosophy ended with" the ancients. Not at all! Philosophy is not something that has an end [0]. It is, rather, a way of living in the world -- a way of being perpetually open to ideas and therefore living the best life possible. But even if it did end in some fashion, I would never argue that it ended with the Greeks. It may have started there (though this is debatable), but the Greeks only represent a sort of waypoint -- certainly not the end all, be all. The goal of the student of ancient philosophy is never to return to Plato in order to, say, reinstitute the Athenian polis today. That would be stupid. Rather, the goal in returning to Plato (for example) is to understand the precise nature of the problems he encountered, in order to then return to that point and make progress from there. This is necessary because that starting point has been covered up by modern philosophy -- it has taken a wrong turn, as it were, and has closed down other avenues worth exploring. In order to recover those avenues it is necessary to return to their original point of departure, and to take them seriously as viable alternative, not simply as wrong paths that have been "proven" erroneous by contemporary advances.

Finally, since we are talking about Plato and Aristotle, I would also just mention that it is dangerous to say "Plato said this" or "Aristotle said that." This is because Plato wrote dialogues, and always presented his apparent positions through the mouthpieces of his characters. Aristotle, too, wrote is a dialogical fashion, often couching his apparent arguments in a response to the prevailing doxa (opinions) of the time. It is difficult, therefore, to ascertain precisely what Plato (the person) or Aristotle (the person) really believed. They also contradict themselves all the time -- Plato, for example, presents his political teaching in two texts (the Republic and the Laws), which are quite different. So while he may (may) have advocated for a communist regime in the Republic, he does not do so in the Laws. Obviously this provokes confusion on the part of the reader. What did they really think then?!? However, I would say that, again, it is precisely this frustration that points back toward another way of "doing" philosophy. Today, contemporary philosophers only ever write treatises, with precise, logical arguments. (Especially in the analytic school.) But Plato shows that there are other ways to seek and present knowledge. Remembering that is itself a worthwhile reason to return to the ancients as well. (And, incidentally, the reason that the author of this post gives, though on a slightly different rationale.)

[0] Though this claim is highly debatable, I should say. Hegelians would disagree. (In this vein consider the popularized "end of history" thesis advanced by Francis Fukuyama.)

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#65
One reason to read old philosophy is that it is way more approachable. Most of the time, the approachability is an inverse function of the date the philosophical material appeared (understandable given our knowledge and thoughts have grown to be more complex throughout history). If you want to get into philosophy, reading a platonic dialogue (except Timaios and those with the Eleian) or one of the simpler texts of Aristotle (like Poetica) is way more easier than say reading Schophenauer, which is in turn easier than Wittgenstein, which in turn is probably easier than reading Derrida. Also, building up on examples of older pieces of philosophy, you have more tools for approaching the new stuff, because, surprise, it's built on not only the concepts, but examples and myths from and references to the old stuff.

And the best thing reading philosophy teaches to the non-academician is how to think with structure and method, avoiding dogma and bias, and embracing scepticism. Reading the dialogues has changed my life entirely because of that.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#66
post #55

This post is misguided on so many levels. It never once occurs to the author that the reason we still study the ancients is because they were right . Like 90% of HN readers, the author tacitly assumes that old == wrong/outmoded/bygone/eclipsed. She thus concludes that the only possible reason to read the ancients is to study their methods (e.g., how Aristotle wrote) and not their actual ideas (e.g., what Aristotle wr…

Thinking there's anything wrong with relativism is perverse, and a disgrace to philosophy as a whole. Trying to discredit relativism means you think there's one, and only one, standard of right and wrong, and that our ethics can never improve based on philosophical thinking. It's anti-progress and, therefore, utterly anti-philosophy.

Isn't your statement itself an absolutist statement? (I.e., that trying to discredit relativism "means" something, as a matter of fact?) If you're being ironic here, well played.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should read on the excesses and failures of Taylorism ? It seems you're trying to apply these failures to education.

I'm not suggesting anything excessive; I'm suggesting (based on a fairly large academic literature) that we know for a fact that a large amount of what is done in our education system does not provide any benefits that we can measure in any way (and not for lack of trying), and that for most of the knowledge that is taught for which we can't find tangible benefits, nearly none of it is retained (which invalidates arg…

> we know for a fact that a large amount of what is done in our education system does not provide any benefits that we can measure in any way

I strongly disagree here. Unless you can provide conclusive studies separating useful and useless knowledge, my facts tend to show that education is profitable, and my opinion is that the value of any knowledge is largely up to the learner's personal preference.

> Most arguments for the educational status quo [...]

You're starting a debate that is not the one we're having here. I suggest you keep it for someone interested in pursuing it.

> most knowledge doesn't need to be taught to everyone.

Applying vertical and horizontal separation to teaching and the acquisition of knowledge is definitely an extremist view in my opinion.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#68
post #65

One reason to read old philosophy is that it is way more approachable. Most of the time, the approachability is an inverse function of the date the philosophical material appeared (understandable given our knowledge and thoughts have grown to be more complex throughout history). If you want to get into philosophy, reading a platonic dialogue (except Timaios and those with the Eleian) or one of the simpler texts of Ar…

> One reason to read old philosophy is that it is way more approachable

I don't think that's really true in general. Sure, Plato is more approachable than Wittgenstein, but I don't think the comparison works the same with, say, Rawls in place of Wittgenstein.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations, you're the 1% who got things out of it. As a former teacher, I can assure you that (optimistically) 90% of what happens in school does not teach any problem-solving skills (and that's backed up by the literature). The 10% that does is in literacy and mathematics up to Algebra (not including Geometry, which almost no one remembers, nearly zero people use, has been demonstrated to make little or no dif…

Is there not value in a basic understanding of, say, history, geography, or political science? Those ideally teach new modes of thought, but at worse they give you a fact or two. Even if they retain 1% of what they learn, they now know that the world isn't as small as it seems, and the world isn't limited to their own experiences.

We know from retention data that we don't actually achieve a basic understanding of history, geography, or political science for the vast majority of students. Is there nothing better that could be done with that time? Should we be content with the structure providing that result? I agree that increasing the size of a student's world is a worthy goal, but there's little to no evidence that we're achieving that for the vast majority of students, and there are costs to achieving those dubious benefits.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#70
post #65

One reason to read old philosophy is that it is way more approachable. Most of the time, the approachability is an inverse function of the date the philosophical material appeared (understandable given our knowledge and thoughts have grown to be more complex throughout history). If you want to get into philosophy, reading a platonic dialogue (except Timaios and those with the Eleian) or one of the simpler texts of Ar…

> "And the best thing reading philosophy teaches to the non-academician is how to think with structure and method, avoiding dogma and bias, and embracing scepticism. Reading the dialogues has changed my life entirely because of that."

Completely agree - I find my philosophy degree being most useful in what you've laid out and also in empathizing (or at least understanding) with what someone else is saying, especially if that person is bad at communication or cannot express themselves as clearly as they'd like.

The older philosophers tended to take the reader on a mental journey / through a mental exercise, and not always a clear one, so you're forced to extrapolate what's important from what seems to be nonsensical stream of consciousness.

I come across folks at work all the time who can't really explain what they're saying, but I'm able to extrapolate based off a few key words / phrases. It's a valuable skill for product discovery / design.

Caveat here is that one can develop the above skills without philosophy so it's not a requirement to read old philosophers, but rather one path among many.

Post reply on HN