Live data from Hacker News

Why read old philosophy?

meteuphoric.com

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam has the ultimate answer to all these personal journey questions. No need for greek philosophy.

If I asked you to furnish me with the reasons why Islam has the ultimate answer (rather than Buddhism, or Christianity, or ultimately Philosophy) you would immediately find yourself in the terrain of the philosopher. Sorry. The only way in which religious thought survives the 21st century is a set of once sacred truths rendered palatable for the secular world. The past belonged to you, the present and future belongs…

> The only way in which religious thought survives the 21st century is a set of once sacred truths rendered palatable for the secular world.

The irony is that you've internalized the revealed truths of your worldview to the point that you don't realize you have any. You don't believe that your philosophy and ethics make any assumptions (but they do). And when confronted the only response is that they're not assumptions, they're self-evident truths.

You're no better than a medieval European peasant in that regard.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#42

Because too many people these days are the "school is overrated, vocational schools are all we need" types who don't understand the basic value of going through the old philosophers... the title is case in point. To me it seems so obvious that there are numerous reasons that it just seems click-baity. You know what they teach at the elite schools (like Eton for example) that most others don't? The trivium and quadriv…

The title is a bit click-baity, indeed, but the article is interesting and worth pondering. It made me think about how we learn to think, about learning "by osmosis", about the "meta" in metaphysics, about the fundamental differences between "hard" sciences and "soft" disciplines like philosophy.

In fact I would argue that a version of this should be presented in the first lecture of a philosophy class.

Also, the author specifically mentions and rejects the poetry comparison explanation.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#43

This post is misguided on so many levels. It never once occurs to the author that the reason we still study the ancients is because they were right . Like 90% of HN readers, the author tacitly assumes that old == wrong/outmoded/bygone/eclipsed. She thus concludes that the only possible reason to read the ancients is to study their methods (e.g., how Aristotle wrote) and not their actual ideas (e.g., what Aristotle wr…

> For a thought experiment (though this may be hard for atheists to stomach), imagine if the author had suggested that the only reason to still read the Bible today was to understand "how" Jesus acted the way he did, or "how" God did what he did. That would be ridiculous. Of course there is more reason to read the original text than that. And Bible is a very old text indeed. The Bible is not a philosophical text in a…

Interesting point, but I don't think you give the Bible enough credit. (For the record, I am not a believer, but I take religion quite seriously.)

First, I don't think any Christian would agree with you that "The Bible is a series of stories, genealogy and poetry, not an argument, or a dialogue that attempts to illuminate the truth, or at least points of disagreement over the truth." Of course the Bible is an illumination of truth -- that is its very foundation! The reason that the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are also called the "revelatory" religions is that they are predicated on the idea that God reveals something true about the world, something that merely human knowledge would otherwise never be able to obtain. This is what makes religion so attractive in the first place -- it promises us a truth we could not know ourselves.

Second, this revelation of truth encompasses both the "why" and the "how," to use your terms. You are correct to say that it gives a story for "why" one might want to live a righteous life (i.e., to achieve salvation and be judged in heaven). But it also gives a explanation for "how" one should live such a life. The most obvious example of this is the Ten Commandments, but also consider other popular maxims like the ones contained in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount. Or think about how Aquinas writes an entire treatise about the differences between natural and divine law, and how the latter is given by God and instructs us on the proper way to live. The Church doesn't just make this stuff up out of thin air -- most of it is grounded in the Scripture.

So, finally, is the Bible so different from a text of ancient philosophy after all? You say that it is not remotely like the Nicomachean Ethics, but insofar as both teach something about both the "why" and the "how" to live a good life, I am not so sure. (To use your criteria of evaluation.) If you're unconvinced, perhaps consider either Plato's Republic or the Gorgias instead. In both those texts, Plato presents elaborate reasons for "why" to live in a particular way, but then concludes with an elaborate myth at the end (the Myth of Er and the Judgment of the Naked Souls). Why does he do this? Perhaps because he knows that, for many, reasoned arguments are not enough to convince. Something like a religion (i.e., a myth) is necessary to compel the masses into living in a way that is good for them. Is that so different from Christianity?

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#44

This post is misguided on so many levels. It never once occurs to the author that the reason we still study the ancients is because they were right . Like 90% of HN readers, the author tacitly assumes that old == wrong/outmoded/bygone/eclipsed. She thus concludes that the only possible reason to read the ancients is to study their methods (e.g., how Aristotle wrote) and not their actual ideas (e.g., what Aristotle wr…

Responding to your basic thesis that the ancients (by which I assume you mean the Presocratics through Plato and Aristotle) were right, what do you make of the numerous problems for which they proposed different answers? For instance:

- Plato's ideal government is radically communist, Aristotle prefers something more in line with contemporary common sense

- Plato's universals (i.e., ideals) are objects in a super-real universe, Aristotle's universals don't have such a privileged reality, and are debatably socially constructed

This is to say nothing of the various physical and cosmological theories that these philosophers had: each was (exaggerating slightly) fantastic, incompatible with any other, and impossible to reconcile with what we know about science in the 21st century.

These philosophers are incredible for their originality and intellectual vitality, but I don't know how wise it is to say that philosophy ended with them. I think the SEP's opening remarks on Aristotle's logic are representative of the attitude one ought to have for a lot of ancient philosophy:

> Aristotle’s logical works contain the earliest formal study of logic that we have. It is therefore all the more remarkable that together they comprise a highly developed logical theory, one that was able to command immense respect for many centuries: Kant, who was ten times more distant from Aristotle than we are from him, even held that nothing significant had been added to Aristotle’s views in the intervening two millennia.

> In the last century, Aristotle’s reputation as a logician has undergone two remarkable reversals. The rise of modern formal logic following the work of Frege and Russell brought with it a recognition of the many serious limitations of Aristotle’s logic; today, very few would try to maintain that it is adequate as a basis for understanding science, mathematics, or even everyday reasoning. At the same time, scholars trained in modern formal techniques have come to view Aristotle with new respect, not so much for the correctness of his results as for the remarkable similarity in spirit between much of his work and modern logic. As Jonathan Lear has put it, “Aristotle shares with modern logicians a fundamental interest in metatheory”: his primary goal is not to offer a practical guide to argumentation but to study the properties of inferential systems themselves.

> (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/)

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you define "got anything out of it" for me? And what is a universal item that literally everyone will use in their life? We could probably stop general education after grade 3 if that was the goal of education.

>Could you define "got anything out of it" for me? Retained any information that gave them skills or enrichment. Skills we can measure as an increase in human capital. Enrichment is tougher, but for enrichment to take place the information has to be retained, and we have plenty of data on the abysmal state of retention. > And what is a universal item that literally everyone will use in their life? We could probably s…

I procrastinated my core courses and took Philosophy my last semester of uni at 22.

I'm so glad I took it that late. It was easily one of the best courses I ever took, of course with the professors to thank for that.

What did I get out of it? It got me thinking about all sorts of concepts, especially concepts I never would've thought about on my own. How do you quantify that? Who knows? I still think about Callicles from the Gorgias and how he'd observe some modern social phenomena and such.

But I think your posts are the sort of overfixation on "getting anything out if it" that the OP is talking about. It's a tempting question because it's usually unanswerable except in the obvious cases. But, for example, learning long division isn't helpful because you do it in the field (I haven't done it since school), rather it's helpful because you're exercising problem solving. Just like philosophy can exercise rationalism.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#46

Why read new philosophy? The old stuff has had the weak ideas weeded out and has a proven track record. "The Yale Report of 1828" -- an influential document written by Jeremiah Day (who was at the time president of Yale), one of his trustees, and a committee of faculty -- distinguished between "the discipline" and "the furniture" of the mind. Mastering a specific body of knowledge -- acquiring "the furniture" -- is o…

I think it's rather the opposite, where modern philosophy benefits from centuries of argument and having had all the weak points removed but they're clearly there for any to see in old philosophy. Reading The Republic recently made me appreciate that there can be such a thing as progress in philosophy.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#47
Knowledge of ancient philosophy, and of its history through the Enlightenment, is necessary to understand and then deliberately change the nature and present course of civilization.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Has philosophy actually made any advances in understanding the "great questions" of the meaning of life and what not? Perhaps the reason that people find reading Plato and Aristotle worthwhile is that people are still beating their heads against the same unanswerable questions.

Yes. It’s just that when they do, it becomes known as logic or science and philosophers get less interested in continuing to think about it. Almost all of the early work in what we’d call computer science was done by philosophers before computers even existed.

But that's just because philosophy originally meant all scholarly pursuits. All of science was called "natural philosophy" before it got its own name. That doesn't mean that what we'd call science today is the same as what we call philosophy, even if some ancients like Aristotle did both.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#49

Because too many people these days are the "school is overrated, vocational schools are all we need" types who don't understand the basic value of going through the old philosophers... the title is case in point. To me it seems so obvious that there are numerous reasons that it just seems click-baity. You know what they teach at the elite schools (like Eton for example) that most others don't? The trivium and quadriv…

You basically repeat that ‘reading the old philosophers is important’ about three times, but give no reason for why that would be important and what exactly you would learn from that.

That they teach it at Eton is not a reason. At most a suggestion there could be a good reason for it.

To realize that ‘they were wise’ is not a reason. Why is that important to realize?

That there are ‘vast amounts of wisdom to be gleaned’ is a restatement, not an argument.

So whatever reading the old philosophers taught you, certainly not argumentation skills.

Re: Why read old philosophy?

#50
I think it comes down to the scientific method. In math and physics new theories are proven extensions or replacements of previous theories. In philosophy you do not have the same kind of proof, there is more room for interpretation. And then of cause there is the beauty and concisenes of the old texts
Post reply on HN