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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#421

Post by upvotinglurker »

ams6110 wrote: post #361
H1Supreme wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 1999 graduate, I can verify the "College is the only way to succeed" sentiment from that time. Most of my class had applied for and been accepted well before we graduated. Sadly, many of them acquired lots of debt, and not much else. I advise any young people I get to talk with about post high school education to not jump head first into a degree program. Life won't pass you by if you take a year or two to formu…

A lot of 18-year-olds are not really very mature these days either. Kids are generally more sheltered, less independent, and have less experience managing their own lives than previous generations. That is why universities now have huge bureaucracies to deal with students who are physically adults but emotionally unprepared to manage their lives and take responsibility for their behavior, actions, and decisions witho…

> So taking a year or two to figure out how to be an adult is not the worst approach to take.

A year spent figuring out how to be an adult would indeed be helpful. Unfortunately, for students who are still immature and sheltered at 18, an additional year spent having their lives completely managed by their parents seems more likely.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#422

Post by Eridrus »

andrewvc wrote: post #36

College is probably a great thing for some people, but it's been oversold. It's not the destination, it's just one way of getting there. One reason why it's so easy to sell, is that college is a near universal experience for the middle and upper classes, and being an expensive experience, people credit it with much of the personal growth that happens in one's early 20s. They also credit it with making them good at th…

For me the value of my degree is very clear: without a degree, I would have had a hard time immigrating to the US.

So this whole "Is college useful thing" is basically only relevant if you never want to live anywhere else. Immigration is far harder if you do not have a degree.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#423

Post by Eridrus »

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

> I believe college should be free, and that colleges should limit their number of students in any given program to some sustainable number, where the graduates can actually earn a living.

So, who gets to choose how many? If you leave it to a professional association you end up in the situation we have with doctors in the US, where we definitely do not have enough.

And who gets to pursue their degree? Do colleges get to keep choosing whoever they want? Because that's probably just going to reinforce the Aristocracy you are complaining about. Do we do it on test scores? Besides the obvious bias issues, not your entire career is determined by some test scores, is that really what we want?

Maybe it's just me, but I really dislike the idea that some exams you take at the end of school basically control how the rest of your life will go, and I'm basically ok with the art history people only being the sons of daughters of aristocrats because there's no money in it.

I think educating people without putting them in debt is a great goal, I just don't think this is a good way to get there.

[EDIT]: In terms of counter-proposals, I think college is actually not the right place to be focussed. I think our housing, transportation and healthcare policies basically make lots of places close to unlivable for those doing low status jobs. I think we need to get very serious about density & public transit. We need to figure out how to do construction on both cheaply so that we can house everyone affordably. Basic income is great and all, but so much of that will go to rent that I basically see good housing/transit policies as a prerequisite for making that actually sustainable.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#424

Post by greedo »

pastor_bob wrote: post #280
s73v3r_ wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of "Stem elitism" that comes up in these threads is really gross.

Not stem specific. I think this is a decent list of acceptable majors/concentrations (outside a trade specific school perhaps): https://college.harvard.edu/academics/fields-study/concentra...

That list has a ton of "soft" majors!

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#425

Post by econochoice »

vorg wrote: post #382
Jesus_Jones wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are unlike almost any other advanced technical field, as in there is so much demand and so much change in the field that degrees aren't as important. After a few years of experience, that's what matters more. But i bet that first job is hard to get.

If, instead of using the metric getting a job as a Software Engineer , you used building and deploying quality software in a timely and cost-effective manner , then a CS and/or SE degree may be very important.

> building and deploying quality software in a timely and cost-effective manner, then a CS and/or SE degree may be very important

I've yet to see a correlation between the two.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#426

Post by upvotinglurker »

RandallBrown wrote: post #416
VikingCoder wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a school would accept you, decide there were too many of your preferred major, and kick you out or choose another That happens all the time. So, yes.

I guess the difference is that the school was previously limiting you based on their resources, which is understandable. It would be a totally different thing if they said "You can't go nursing school because there are currently too many nurses and it might be hard for you to find a job, even though our classes are half full."

Presumably their class sizes would also be a responsive part of the system (so they wouldn't be half full).

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#427

Post by [deleted] »

vubuntu wrote: post #337
shaftway wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient . Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure) There may be thousands of software prod…

[deleted]

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#428

Post by shaftway »

vubuntu wrote: post #337
shaftway wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient . Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure) There may be thousands of software prod…

I guess I spoke too broadly in this case. The primary I see isn't an MD, they are a PA-C. But I know that they're consulting with an MD behind the scenes as necessary.

I'm not exactly sure where I draw the line, and for me it's a lot of "I know it when I see it". I'm not suggesting any specific code here, just pointing out that there are positions all over the spectrum. I find the fact that a CID (Certified Interior Decorator) is a thing is absurd.

Maybe my requirement is that someone with an appropriate level is in the chain somewhere.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#429

Post by geebee »

mkirklions wrote: post #53
anoncoward111 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's already a shame that the answer isn't 100% yes, 100% of the time. back in the 70s, tuition was payable with a summer job and job prospects were decent enough despite geopolitical and economic headwinds these days, the same problems plague the job market, but every year of college costs 1 year of salary, unless you qualify for stackable forms of financial aid

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

That's excellent, I might even call it extraordinary. Meaning, that is outside the ordinary.

I knew a guy in college, at UCSD, who was trying to take a full CS load while working at Nordstrom. This was in the 90s, so rent, tuition, and costs weren't as high around UCSD as they are now, but making enough to cover rent alone can be a challenge. He was trying to take calc, physics, datas structures and algorithms, and humanities.

Data structures had a pretty tough teacher that semester. I didn't have to work, and I was putting in 20 hours a week at it, to get a B+. That's not a lot for this course, either.

He dropped it. You did ChemE while working, so I bet you could have handled the CS course load at UCSD while working. But I just can't see this as a viable path for most people. In short, I agree that there are extraordinary people who can handle it, but it's not something we can reasonably expect. You can major in communications this way, but CS will lose a lot of talent.

Memories like this, and others, are why I get so angry at times when I hear billionaire CEOs talking about the shortage of engineers in the US. We have talented people here, smart and eager to work hard, failing because they are underfunded. The massive wealth of these CEOs exists only because they can access a highly educated workforce in a safe, stable, peaceful, business friendly democracy.

If they're going to talk about how this environment is failing them, they aren't doing enough. Seriously. It's appalling that talented people who had the grades and test scores to study CS at public (elite) institutions in Facebook's own backyard are failing out of CS because they can't pay the rent and balance the part time job with the demands of a very rigorous curriculum, while billionaire CEOs talk about how the government is failing to produce or give them access to enough engineers.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#430

Post by shaftway »

derefr wrote: post #182
shaftway wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

> How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US [...]

I have zero problem with this. If I was a doctor on the US and moved outside of it I'd expect to requalify there. Different areas have different levels required and just because you've met the levels required in one area doesn't mean you've met them in another.

> They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them.

That's your actual concern. I don't think you want to get rid of requalification, just make the process quicker and less expensive. Advocate for this, then.

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