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Too Clever by Half

epsilontheory.com

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Re: Too Clever by Half

#211

Post by salvar »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #180
salvar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication Did you read the full text or just immediately jump to the snarky burn attempt?

It was "please can you indicate what specifically about the claims you think is unlikely; or your purpose in questioning and expectations for a response". I mean you don't actually think there's documentary evidence from the time dogs became domesticated of either what the people, or the dogs, were specifically thinking, do you? It was my hope that, perhaps, by reflecting on that I might draw attention to the obvious…

I just wanted to know how OP could state so precise things about the intentions of humans back then. I didn't even consider the types of existing evidence or whether the direction of questioning was obviously futile; I just asked a person if there was a source or data behind a statement. But thanks for the snark, it really improved the discussion.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#212

Post by Raidion »

mcv wrote: post #49
dibujante wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-five, fellow "burned by needing to do real work in university" high schooler :(

Same here. Once I figured out that I didn't really have to do any homework in high school, and wasn't even required to do so in university, I was doomed. I'm now trying to teach my son that just learning to do the work, even if it's boring, is the real skill you need. But he's too focused on winning every mini-game.

My dad told me that school isn't about learning, it's about learning how to learn. That really changed my perspective. I won't care about classical painters and what years they were around and why they were remarkable in even 6 months, but when I do find something I care about, I'll be able to apply focus and learn.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#213

Post by Raidion »

make3 wrote: post #111
dzdt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! Thats a major point in the article. Coyotes don't meta-game. Trying to get your great-grand-cubs domesticated would be a meta-game strategy. Coyotes are masters of the scheming mini-game.

does any individual animal other than humans meta game? I'd be surprised if even chimps had long term deceptive overarching strategies

I think another point of the article is that even though we humans meta-game, we probably aren't meta-gaming at a high enough level and that might give the human species trouble at some point in the future. You could even argue that it's already happening with our fairly casual destruction of the environment, overfishing, over use of certain crops, etc.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#214

Post by ItsMe000001 »

salvar wrote: post #153
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves.

> not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication (even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening). Again: Can you support this claim with anything? I'm actually curious, and you seem evasive.

Huh?

Again: Proof has to be provided by the one making the extraordinary claims.

The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves.

That statement was made by anonytrary, not by me.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#215

Post by jv22222 »

jjoonathan wrote: post #208
uhhhhhhh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing his point here. Yes, those of us that question and break rules can optimize for what is actually desired vs what is 'proscribed' and have better outcomes. But many/most people rather just follow the rules/directions in the first place rather than break the rules or attempt to find optimal ways around them.

Riiiight, which is why many/most people drive the speed limit.

Well, that's not a great example because people drive the speed that everyone else drives at, so the "rules" are implied because we're all doing it.

All this other stuff is about people looking for specific optimizations or ways to game the system that most people don't do.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#216

Post by TrispusAttucks »

If you enjoyed this article and especially the parallel between animal populations and human behavior. I recommend reading about [1] Evolutionarily Stable Strategy and specificly the book [2] The Selfish Gene by [3] Richard Dawkins.

The gist of it is that survival strategies are only viable given the distribution of the behavior throughout the entire species or population. Similar to a finicial market, some strategies work only when a small percentage of the population exhibits the behavior.

A bonus is that, like the phrase Too Clever by Half, Dawkins is also British.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strategy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

Re: Too Clever by Half

#217

Post by virgilp »

antishatter wrote: post #181
w_t_payne wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I would make options on that coin a mandatory part of the compensation package of leaders in both the public and private sector. It is all about finding the right sort of incentive. :-)

Options are the right to buy not the mandate to buy. Thus the name "option". I don't know that I follow your point?

If they aren't exercised, part of the compensation is nullified

Re: Too Clever by Half

#218

Post by CuriouslyC »

blattimwind wrote: post #184
lostcolony wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe try to figure out how to make the work fun? Or, try and instill a goal less of "getting the grade" and more "attain mastery of the subject"? I would have been burnt in college, except I got to homeschool the last few years of high school. During that time I took CLEP tests. They were pretty easy for the most part, but they required I actually do the reading and prepare for them. That helped, since in school I j…

> Maybe try to figure out how to make the work fun? You need discipline, not fun. Schools largely fail at teaching discipline, let alone self-discipline.

People working just by sheer discipline tend to produce mediocre work. The best results come from people who are passionate about what they do.

Re: Too Clever by Half

#219

Post by nazca »

nazca wrote: post #4

The only issue with his metaphor is that coyotes have been doing very well at the meta game. At the time of European contact there were no coyotes anywhere near Connecticut. Lewis and Clark didn't encounter them until they hit the great plains. Actually only a few decades ago there were no coyotes near the eastern US. But coyotes are clever and they've learned to adapt and live in close proximity to humans. And as we…

For those interested on the more-fascinating-than-you-might-assume history of coyotes I suggest you read Coyote America by Dan Flores. There is also a fantastic podcast episode that hits the high points of the book: http://www.themeateater.com/podcasts/episode-033/
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