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I Got Catfished by a Candidate

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Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#621

Post by adamzk »

hodgesrm wrote: post #590
f4stjack wrote: post #390

The thing I don't get is, and probably I'll be downvoted to hell because of that, even though this guy lied about his past, his knowledge is solid. Nobody can guess what the interviewers will ask you and from what I've read from the text he aced those. If this is the tech business rolls what I see that it wants developers with a history, with connections, with "clout" so to speak; doesn't matter if you can help their…

Are you saying it's good to hire people who lie to get through the interview? What would they lie about on the job? This kind of thing can end badly. I worked with a guy who was kicked out of two companies (first for fiddling expenses and second for faking his CV on a grand scale) and ended up sentenced to 64 months in prison for fraud. [0] He fooled a lot of very smart people along the way. I still don't fully under…

Yeah but he did it to get the job not to defraud anyone. That's dedication not deceit. He wasn't pretending to be anybody else. He was probably rejected from a million jobs before this one despite presumably being extremely well prepared and qualified. So other options are there? Fudge the references, perform well and ask for forgiveness later. I say hire him. Not everybody has the luxury of a fancy education and the connections that come with it. Not everybody comes from an environment where they have the privilege of interaction with others in the field. Some of us come from nothing and educate ourselves independently. It's a shame that its nearly impossible to get one's foot in the door despite having ostensibly worked harder than many of those who were given a fair shot. Check your privilege.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#623

Post by extra88 »

magduf wrote: post #609
extra88 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> asking all of your contacts about someone That escalated quickly. Checking references is one of the last things we do and insist that one be their a current manager so being "outed" by someone else isn't an issue. If I talk to a non-reference who I think is in a position to know about a candidate's performance, I would make it clear that discretion is called for; that's no guarantee but again, reference checks are…

Just because you've gotten the the point of checking references doesn't mean the candidate is definitely going to accept your offer. If you called my manager and got me fired from my job in an interview process, I'd most likely hire a lawyer and sue you.

> I'd most likely hire a lawyer and sue you.

This is America so anyone can sue for anyone for anything but what exactly do you think the grounds would be for a suit? I won't call without your consent, I have no intent to cause you harm, if the reference calls go well you'll even likely get a job offer.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#624

Post by extra88 »

learc83 wrote: post #593
extra88 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a friend pretend to be your boss for a reference would be risky. I could look up the contact information you provide to see if it matches the manager's name, I could call a general number at the business to be connected to them. Is the friend supposed to answer the phone pretending to be someone else for an unknown period of time? There are many ways in which they could screw up their performance. This is real…

> I could look up the contact information you provide to see if it matches the manager's name, I could call a general number at the business to be connected to them. I've never done this when checking references, and I've never known anyone who does it regularly. It seems that there is a disconnect here between your sector and private industry. Your hiring practices seem a bit off to people coming from private indust…

I don't automatically mistrust reference contact information provided, I'm just explaining some of the risks. The risk wouldn't end after the reference checks, the truth could come out at any time and could result in dismissal.

> Your hiring practices seem a bit off to people coming from private industry

I don't care what handful of people think, especially when they seem to be just thinking adversarially and not speaking from experience. None of us are in a position to speak about what practices are prevalent in any sector. But you can now say you've encountered someone who claims to have been a hiring manager that, on at least one occasion, didn't just go by the contact information provided for a reference check.

> If you mean legally

I don't mean anything beyond that I'd have a strong emotional reaction to such a large deception and would wish for there to be consequences so they would regret it and never do it again. Courts didn't cross my mind but in then little that I have thought about it, my guess has been that there wouldn't be anything to do.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#625

Post by phyller »

magduf wrote: post #603
phyller wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first person people lie to is themselves. For a person that doesn't have a personal commitment to integrity, when they are placed in a position where they are incentivized to lie, they will first convince themselves that this lie is either harmless (we are going to lose the account anyway, what is the point of getting everyone mad at me) or the lie is for a good cause. Once that is done, usually unconsciously, th…

So exactly how do you think your friend should have handled it? Tell his employer he was checking out a potential new job? How do you think that would have gone? You think someone of "integrity" needs to ruin their current employment every time they even think about finding a new job?

This is another problem with people who lie, it actually takes practice to be both truthful and tactful, and they don't even know how to do it. It's crazy to me that I have to say this, but as has already been stated in this thread, being truthful doesn't mean you have to constantly spew everything you are thinking, stream of consciousness style. You just don't mislead people.

What he should have done was a) coordinate a time with me when he was off work anyway or b) ask for a day off. He doesn't need to explain why, he could have said it was a personal day, it's not his bosses business. I don't expect someone to work two jobs simultaneously, we'd have easily worked it out.

I no longer run my own business. When I am looking for new employment, I do my current job, and do my job search when I can fit it in. If I need to take time off I take it. That didn't even occur to you?

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#626

Post by phyller »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #506
phyller wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first person people lie to is themselves. For a person that doesn't have a personal commitment to integrity, when they are placed in a position where they are incentivized to lie, they will first convince themselves that this lie is either harmless (we are going to lose the account anyway, what is the point of getting everyone mad at me) or the lie is for a good cause. Once that is done, usually unconsciously, th…

> personal commitment to integrity Psychology seems to be way more complex than "once a liar always a liar". Some citation of psychological research would help.

I didn't make that claim. What I am implying though, is that in order to be a person of integrity I do believe it takes some forethought. In the heat of the moment, when you are very incentivized to lie, everything is going to be pushing you to take the easy way out and you will. If, however, you have thought about it, and made a decision before these moments even occur, you have a chance. Even then I don't think you will always be successful.

Certainly people can change and improve themselves. I don't believe "once an x always an x" for anything I can think of.

Turns out, what I am saying is all backed up by a study which took about a minute of Googling to find: https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4426#affil-auth

"Here we provide empirical evidence for a gradual escalation of self-serving dishonesty and reveal a neural mechanism supporting it. Behaviorally, we show that the extent to which participants engage in self-serving dishonesty increases with repetition. Using functional MRI, we show that signal reduction in the amygdala is sensitive to the history of dishonest behavior, consistent with adaptation. Critically, the extent of reduced amygdala sensitivity to dishonesty on a present decision relative to the previous one predicts the magnitude of escalation of self-serving dishonesty on the next decision. The findings uncover a biological mechanism that supports a 'slippery slope': what begins as small acts of dishonesty can escalate into larger transgressions."

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#627

Post by ebbv »

magduf wrote: post #583
ebbv wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, no. Someone who would lie this much to get what he wants will lie when you're working with him. If he makes a big mistake he will lie about it to avoid getting fired just as surely as he lied to get the job. Citing Neil Gaiman -- or some other celebrity -- doesn't do anything to make this less true.

He was applying to a sales position. Sales is fundamentally about lying to potential customers to sell them stuff.

It's very sad that you believe that. It doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be in my opinion. That's a tactic immoral people resort to and make excuses like "Everybody does it." for their behavior.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#628

Post by glastra »

nocman wrote: post #520
glastra wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, answering with "thank you for making it" should be equivalent in everyone else's brains to "well, that wasn't very good". Social consequences will ensue regardless of you stating it or not. In this situation, as in many others, a lack of positive reaction is considered a negative reaction. It all boils down to ego and believing others don't have a reason to look down at you just because you didn't dire…

Maybe something is being lost in the lack of tone, but I don't in any way believe that anwsering "thank you for making it" could be construed as being selfish. And it has absolutely nothing to do with ego, it's about being kind to others.

Tone has nothing to do with the fact that you were asked a question and you responded with a non-answer. And anyone can notice that, and the intention there-in.

There is simply no way anyone could perceive this as not dodging the question in order to not state what you truly think. This is why I consider it a worse behavior (and with a certainly worse outcome) than just simply lying and saying something along the lines of "it was good, thanks".

In the end, you could either

a) Lie directly ("it was great")

b) Lie by omission ("thank you for making it")

c) Be ruthlessly truthful ("it was pretty bad")

d) Be truthful, but tactful ("it was alright / I've had better, but it's very much appreciated")

In my opinion, b is definitely a worse social behavior than a. Yes, you blatantly lie in case a, but that is a lie with a justifiable goal: making someone else feel better.

Case b is still lying to some degree, and here you are half-lying in your own selfish interest: you want to think high of yourself because you didn't say an outright lie, while still trying not to hurt someone else's feelings. In other words, it's the response someone with needs for self-justification would choose. The worst/best thing is that this behavior is easily perceived, and its motives inferred: worst for the respondent; best for others, who can see her/him for what she/he is.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#629

Post by learc83 »

extra88 wrote: post #624
learc83 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could look up the contact information you provide to see if it matches the manager's name, I could call a general number at the business to be connected to them. I've never done this when checking references, and I've never known anyone who does it regularly. It seems that there is a disconnect here between your sector and private industry. Your hiring practices seem a bit off to people coming from private indust…

I don't automatically mistrust reference contact information provided, I'm just explaining some of the risks. The risk wouldn't end after the reference checks, the truth could come out at any time and could result in dismissal. > Your hiring practices seem a bit off to people coming from private industry I don't care what handful of people think, especially when they seem to be just thinking adversarially and not spe…

>None of us are in a position to speak about what practices are prevalent in any sector.

I don't think that's true. I've been around long enough to know that insisting on getting a reference from someone's current manager is not a common practice for developer jobs in private industry.

Like I said, it may be common in your sector, but it most definitely is not in mine.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#630

Post by M_Bakhtiari »

ControlledBurn wrote: post #536
emodendroket wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a secular version of a church or something. Am I in the right ballpark?

Eh, kind of. There's a no atheists allowed rule last I checked (A belief in a supreme being and scripture is a condition of membership), but they're not picky about what god(s) you might worship.

That's the root of the problem of freemasonry.

It means that a freemason have to hold contradictory positions as true. One might be an atheist by one cannot reject the so-called supreme being, one might belong to an Abrahamic religion but one cannot reject the Hindu pantheon. And within the Abrahamic religions it's more contentious than anything.

It's an expression of the Orwellian "2 + 2 = 5", and it's a very dangerous anti-realist totalitarian ideology, and it should be rejected whether you're a theist or an atheist.

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