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Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

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Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#101

Post by eesmith »

mc32 wrote: post #92
retSava wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that you can't simply lump all military-related activities into one heap. There's a scale from passively only reacting in self-defense when acted upon, to actively seeking engagement on foreign ground. This thing Google helps with, parsing and scanning through drone visual feeds, typically ends up on the latter end of the scale. Sure, it could be used for parsing feeds from drones monitoring the US borde…

One could argue if a military will keep on using drones, is it “better” for them and us to better discern an enemy more accurately to minimize non enemy casualties, or continue with present incidental collateral death rates? It’s not as simple as I’m against droning—that’s going to continue so long as the electorate demands minimized losses on our side (a very good argument, one leftists leveraged to try to get the U…

"One could argue" many things.

We have more than the two choices you present. We could add more people to the task instead of using machines.

We can redefine what "enemy" means such that anyone who dies in a target area is an "enemy" - poof! no incidental collateral deaths.

We can allow, say, the objections of the crew of the AC-130 to override possibly illegal orders which result in targeting hospitals.

There are a great many things we can do; enough to suggest that what you propose as the goal to consider likely isn't an important US goal.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#102

Post by mc32 »

eesmith wrote: post #101
mc32 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue if a military will keep on using drones, is it “better” for them and us to better discern an enemy more accurately to minimize non enemy casualties, or continue with present incidental collateral death rates? It’s not as simple as I’m against droning—that’s going to continue so long as the electorate demands minimized losses on our side (a very good argument, one leftists leveraged to try to get the U…

"One could argue" many things. We have more than the two choices you present. We could add more people to the task instead of using machines. We can redefine what "enemy" means such that anyone who dies in a target area is an "enemy" - poof! no incidental collateral deaths. We can allow, say, the objections of the crew of the AC-130 to override possibly illegal orders which result in targeting hospitals. There are a…

Sure, the point is frustrating the govt’s attempt at better data means that they might have to revert to one of the options you posed which would be contrary to the goals sought by those objecting to google’s getting involved —undercutting their own argument.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#103

Post by Pigo »

murph-almighty wrote: post #61
easytiger wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without insurance, much of all business and life cannot be risk managed and is not viable in any way. Pretty silly POV

I don't disagree with you- insurance does perform an essential function in risk management. However, this doesn't mean that individual actors in this space have always performed in the "best" way. Not to mention the nature of insurance in general is adversarial against the customer- if you pay out on too many policies you're underwater.

I really didn't want to delve into this on here, but I suppose I should have assumed that a lot of people out there work for insurance companies. So here it goes...

It was a relatively small dental insurance company that had a reputation for being "for the little guy". To be honest I hadn't thought about it much before working there. But then I sat through meetings where they were actively trying to come up with strategies to get more single guys to sign up, and to keep mothers from signing up. They weren't even coy about it. All development went into signing certain people up, almost nothing went into helping people actually use it.

I blame the hospitals and the insurance companies both for the pricing arms race. I guess my big conceptual concern is how our society no longer makes anything, but just finds new ways of extracting money from each other. And besides housing market crashers and the bad actors on Wall Street (who should be in jail), I can't think of another industry that is completely built around a vague concept of money.

This will probably anger a lot of people, but it's just how I feel. I don't think everyone who works there is going to hell, it's just not something I was proud to say I was a part of. I didn't feel like I was contributing to something that was making the world better.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#104

Post by Pigo »

philipodonnell wrote: post #78
tzakrajs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the United States, it's a trope that insurance salespeople and civil litigation lawyers are scumbags. I think it's completely bullshit, we need these industries.

> At least in the United States, it's a trope that insurance salespeople and civil litigation lawyers are scumbags. I think it's completely bullshit, we need these industries. We can both need industries while calling out that salespeople in that industry can be unscrupulous. Try asking an auto agent to justify why you need $100K/$300K and collision coverage on a $5K car and listen to the endless emotional stories ab…

It's the protection plans from Walmart, the coverages when you buy a car, the countless times big purchases become gigantic impulse buys because you're made to feel you can't afford not to roll the dice. It's not all insurance, but this concept of insurance pervades so much of the economic world. It just sickens me.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#105

Post by amaccuish »

shanghaiaway wrote: post #4

>the company has defended its work on Maven and is thought to be one of the lead contenders for another major Pentagon cloud computing contract, the Joint Enterprise Defense Infrastructure, better known as JEDI, that is currently up for bids. I'd say Google has closer ties to the military industrial complex than for example Huawei does to the PLA. I not only think that Google should be banned outside of the US, but t…

Exactly. These companies are far from transparent, the best move is to not put all our eggs in one basket/country.

We too easily allow ourselves to leave it all up to Google and US companies with shady backgrounds and connections. It's why we must support the development of services like WeChat etc, so we are not fully reliant on the US. It also has the added benefit of allowing much greater focus on non-US people and languages, we're often forgotten about.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#106

Post by RickJWagner »

jahaja wrote: post #13

Very respectable decision in my book. Walking the walk, not just talking the talk. You just can't abstract yourself away from ethical decisions ad infinitum. The level of self-deception needed to convince oneself that this, or whatever US military tech for that matter, would only be used for defensive purposes is mind-boggling to me.

I respect the workers for walking away. If they are committed pacifists, then more power to them.

As for me, I'm a proud military veteran. I believe a strong US military helps make the world a better and safer place. So I'd keep that job and work it as best as I could.

Different strokes for different folks. Life's too short to hate people who think differently.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#107

Post by dx034 »

scruple wrote: post #93
dx034 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most health insurance companies do but not all. And of Non-life insurance companies (property, car) there's generally not such a bad perception. But I'm not based in the US so can't say. At least in Europe, most people are not the biggest fan of insurances but they recognise the need for them.

Allstate and State Farm famously skipped insurance payouts for victims of Hurricane Katrina. More recently, victims of the Tubbs Fire in Santa Rosa, CA are locked in a legal battle with their property insurers. I agree with you that you _must_ have it, regardless of personal feelings or perception, but it's very far from perfect and probably very far from most measures of "good," too.

Maybe it's because I'm based in Europe. It doesn't appear to be the same to me here. Insurances obviously also try to prevent paying out but that's mostly in unclear cases or where there was some fault. All cases I know from friends & family were paid rather quickly..

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#108

Post by marco_salvatori »

On a more general note, where ones work violates ones values either because one feels ones work can enable unwarrented agression, transgressions against human liberties, or violaations of human rights. The most influential thing one can do is walk away. A core set of experineced, capable engineers is required for the success of many projects beyond standard levels of complexity. Engineers now, but more in the future, will influence aysmetrically the type of systems that get built, just by refusing to work on projects that can server intrests that they are at odds with.

As a second point, engineers somewhere, perhaps readers of hackernews, have built systems that enabled illegality and overreach -- and they maintain them. I understand that people want to provide for their families and futures, but at some level introspection, unfortuntely, seems to have fallen short. Taking the idea a step further, what expections should we have of our peers?

People really can help create the future through what they choose to work on.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#109

Post by acct1771 »

creo wrote: post #17

Off-topic: 2008 ... everyone was using G product (in my env at least). Imagine saying back then "10 years from now Google will provide military with artificial intelligence".

They've been assisting with govt/.MIL intelligence tech forever.

The artificial part is just the nature progression of such.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#110

Post by acct1771 »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #19

Eric Schmidt acted directly on the behalf of the US government and the State Department, and has been cultivating close ties with the DoD for years now. Published in 2013-2014 time frame: https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/

This deserves so much more attention.
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