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Why are so many programmers arrogant?

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Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#61

Post by jacquesm »

easyfrag wrote: post #12
gaius wrote: post #2

Young people with a natural affinity for an in-demand skill often are. A hundred years ago you could have written this about pilots. 500 years about painters (apprentices to the great masters in the Renaissance were notorious for it). As an aside, for every genuine Aspbergers case, there are 10 who simply think they have a god-given right to act like dicks. It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones becau…

I agree with this, I've worked in health care and programmers have nothing on physicians when it comes to arrogance. I don't know any programmers who would coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment...

Check out the 'save my life' thread.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#62

Post by jacquesm »

wisty wrote: post #47

There's a lot of ways programmers can be arrogant: * Black-and-white feedback. Software is very black and white. Your dietitian can tell you to "reduce your sugar intake" instead of telling you you're fat because you drink so much cola. There's no way to sugar coat "you pressed the wrong button, and now you have to start over", unless you want to point out that the programmer who make the stupid program must have bee…

If there is one inanimate object that will teach you with great patience and to devastating effect how often you are wrong it is the computer.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#63

Post by thaumaturgy »

j_baker wrote: post #59
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

...depending on the presentation.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#64

Post by omaranto »

j_baker wrote: post #59
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

Being stubborn about the truth sounds reasonable, but why is being arrogant about it a virtue?

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#65

Post by mixu »

Confusion wrote: post #43
gaius wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a rule are more often right than wrong, even if the subject is not programming I would say this statement is the very height of arrogance. But this is easy to test: simply don't engage the services of any specialists for bit. Do your own plumbing, fix your own car or central heating, represent yourself in court (and tell the judge you know more than him about the law). Then see how you feel in a year.

Smart people are a minority and on average find themselves in a conversation with less smart people. Therefore, smart people tend to be right more often than less smart people, partly because they know more, but also because they are more aware of what they don't know and are less prone to saying wrong things. Instead, they will keep their mouth shut, hedge their words or learn about the subject first. Jacquesm's sta…

> Smart people are a minority and on average find themselves in a conversation with less smart people.

Only assuming that all people are equally likely to interact with one another. Which I doubt is strictly true, given that those cases in which I've actually interacted with everyone from an age group (e.g. military service) are strikingly different to the daily interactions I have. I would imagine people in places where opinions actually matter (such as the workplace) mostly interact with people of somewhat similar background and smarts, though obviously with different fields of specialization.

But even within groups of more-or-less equally smart people, the choice of topics to be assertive about and the style of argument are still factors that make people seem arrogant, so I do agree with you. But I would attribute it more to choice of topic and style of argument rather than "smartness". As you said, the definition of "smart" is problematic and potentially circular.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#66

Post by jacquesm »

gaius wrote: post #58
jacquesm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't it be the norm though, this reminds me of my favorite Robert Heinlein quote: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty…

Of the things on that list "program a computer" comes after "pitch manure". Jus' sayin'.

I think they're sorted in ascending order of appreciation ;)

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#67

Post by Vivtek »

easyfrag wrote: post #12
gaius wrote: post #2

Young people with a natural affinity for an in-demand skill often are. A hundred years ago you could have written this about pilots. 500 years about painters (apprentices to the great masters in the Renaissance were notorious for it). As an aside, for every genuine Aspbergers case, there are 10 who simply think they have a god-given right to act like dicks. It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones becau…

I agree with this, I've worked in health care and programmers have nothing on physicians when it comes to arrogance. I don't know any programmers who would coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment...

I think the same rule holds with doctors as with programmers - there are tremendously arrogant people who use their position as a surrogate for competence, and there are people who really are competent and don't have much time to deal with fools.

The only way to tell the difference is to watch their results for a while.

Jacquesm mentions the "save my life" thread. Yeah. Read that. I'm one of the programmers would damn straight coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment - until I know which of the above groups the physician in question falls into.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#69

Post by dtf »

Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

Arrogance born out of genius is more than tolerable. But arrogance born out of mediocrity, ignorance or insecurity is a more common and toxic blend.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#70

Post by petercooper »

j_baker wrote: post #59
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

I heard a line in a comedy the other night: "I never compromise. Because if you compromise, you're admitting you aren't right."

On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

I take it you're not married. And if you are, please write a book about this policy and its effects if you use it frequently ;-)

Also, an issue about being stubborn about the truth is that there can be as many versions of the "truth" as there are actors in the situation. Typically people don't deliberately argue positions they think are untrue. See crime witnesses or religious people for powerful examples.

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