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Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

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Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#21
post #4

Maybe still ISPs suffer poor field reports. I was client at "Kabel Deutschland, Germany" and they offer native IPv6 for their customers, with "Dual stack lite" as the routing option to reach the IPv4 world. It performed poorly for me, perhaps due to bad load balancing of the IPv4-gateways. I switched to a buisness plan (+10EUR/month) of the same ISP and now have an own static IPv4 adress and not even native access to…

For the record, I'm also on the business plan (cable) with them but seem to have absolutely no troubles with IPv4 and IPv6 and I'm IPv6 native from what I can see here. Are you on DSL by any chance?

My experiences come from Unitymedia (in Germany), they offer 50-200Mbit over cable TV lines (coax).

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#22
> Let’s measure the “wealth” of an ISP by the aggregate wealth of its customer base

You can't measure the wealth of an ISP by the wealth of its customer base. ISP businesses are very different in each country. In one country there could be no ISP-hostile regulations, low barriers of entry, a lot of competition, cheap labor, resulting in like $5 ARPU in urban areas and low margins. In another country ISPs could manage to monopolize the market with regulations creating a lot of burden for smaller players, resulting in like $20 ARPU and very high margins. In some countries it is also possible for rent seekers that provide infrastructure for ISPs to suck all the revenue, still allowing competition and leaving them with big ARPUs but low margins.

I suspect the hunch in the title is right though. ISPs from the least competitive markets and therefore rich can afford and do deploy IPv6. While ISPs from the most competitive markets cannot afford bothering with IPv6 and since there is no demand for it yet at all, they don't deploy it. But if demand for IPv6 starts growing for some reason, ISPs from competitive markets will of course deploy it.

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#23
> You need to be a rich ISP to afford IPv6 deployment

That's not a guarantee though. Verizon are rich, yet their fiber residential network has been "in the process"[1] of deploying IPv6 for years, and nothing is anywhere in sight still.

1. https://www.verizon.com/support/residential/internet/getting...

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#24

Is there a reason ISPs would be reluctant to discuss their motivations for IPv6 deployment? That is, why can't you just ask them?

How much would you pay to access the ipv4 internet?

How much would you pay to access the ipv6 internet?

What are support costs for ipv6 endpoints / compatibility needs / help desk / securing / understanding / training all techs etc vs ipv4?

= ISP motivation?

ipv4 is relatively well understood, existing infrastructure to serve it, and people are willing to pay MORE to access the ipv4 internet, and basically won't pay anything to access ipv6 only internet.

If you've used ipv6 actively, plenty of stuff doesn't play well, lots of weird hangs on connections etc in deployed contexts, and even with ipv6 you can't seem to actually go endpoint to endpoint (ie, printer at work from computer at home easily). My ipv4 based vpn works great though (and doesn't support ipv6 properly). I started down path of hassling vendors, but it's not worth it. You've got your work ISP to hassle, then fix work internet gateway, then get firewall sorted, then get internal network sorted (yes, the copier runs some ancient crap), then get each employees home internet sorted, then all their machines, then all the related software. They couldn't have made the migration path harder if they had tried.

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#25
post #16
post #7

I think eventually the only thing that will have any hope of forcing proper IPv6 adoption is some popular service being made available only over IPv6. We can call it "IPv6walling."

There's 3 websites, to my knowledge, that are IPv6 only: * https://loopsofzen.uk/ * https://42.be/ * https://ct.filippo.io/ They aren't quite killer applications though, so it won't push many to IPv6. Possibly as the internet gets larger, some hosting providers simply won't have any free IPv4 addresses left? I guess that could be solved by putting CloudFlare in front of the server to provide an IPv4 address. It's str…

Also customers would just think the website is offline, because browser's error page doesn't say: "You have IPv4, but you need IPv6. Call your ISP."

So there'd be no: "I want this IPv6" calls to the ISP.

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#26
post #3

I don't find it surprising that they can't find a correlation between GDP/growing user base/IPv4 stress and IPv6 deployment. IPv6 deployment is a matter of politics. It depends on the opinions of the network personnel, on the hardware they have in their core network, on the hardware their customers have (CPEs), on the support contracts they have, etc. That's what decides whether they put a CGNAT in place, whether the…

Also, IPv4 exhaustion doesn’t affect Africa yet, only the American, Asian and European RIR.

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#27
post #25
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's 3 websites, to my knowledge, that are IPv6 only: * https://loopsofzen.uk/ * https://42.be/ * https://ct.filippo.io/ They aren't quite killer applications though, so it won't push many to IPv6. Possibly as the internet gets larger, some hosting providers simply won't have any free IPv4 addresses left? I guess that could be solved by putting CloudFlare in front of the server to provide an IPv4 address. It's str…

Also customers would just think the website is offline, because browser's error page doesn't say: "You have IPv4, but you need IPv6. Call your ISP." So there'd be no: "I want this IPv6" calls to the ISP.

Just redirect your A record to youdonthaveipv6.com

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#28
Even where ISP's support IPv6, hardware is often the impediment. I've finally enabled IPv6 at home now that Ubiquiti has enabled support.

My office is on Meraki hardware, which is not yet IPv6-ready. Can't quite wrap my mind around the latter. I didn't pay for the hardware or initial 3 years, and I certainly won't be extending the license if support isn't ready.

As a side note, I'd look closely at router implementations as you deploy in home and other small networks. Too many consumer-grade hardware companies rely on NAT versus proper firewall rules to restrict inbound traffic. I don't expect the majority of them to get the basic protections right as we move to publicly addressed IPv6 networks.

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#29
post #3

I don't find it surprising that they can't find a correlation between GDP/growing user base/IPv4 stress and IPv6 deployment. IPv6 deployment is a matter of politics. It depends on the opinions of the network personnel, on the hardware they have in their core network, on the hardware their customers have (CPEs), on the support contracts they have, etc. That's what decides whether they put a CGNAT in place, whether the…

>" It depends on the opinions of the network personnel, on the hardware they have in their core network, on the hardware their customers have (CPEs), on the support contracts they have, etc."

Are you saying there are network engineers/management at ISPs who don't believe IPv6 is an imperative? As someone who in a former life worked inside large ISPs on the networking side I can tell you that that view would be quite rare. What would be the politics exactly?

Most ISPs run Juniper and Cisco gear in their core, both of these have have been capable of routing v6 for well over a decade now. Additionally if you are running older gear you would have hit the 512K route TCAM limit years ago.[1]

None of this would have anything to do with existing support contracts either. You would be pretty hard-pressed to find a rev of JunOS or IOS/NXOS that didn't support v6.

It's actually much more efficient to route v6 than v4. The global IPv4 table 719K prefixes now while IPv6 has 52K See:

http://www.cidr-report.org/as2.0/

and

http://www.cidr-report.org/v6/as2.0/

Lastly the fee schedule for IPv6 allocations from RIRs are not cost prohibitive for an ISP. Using ARIN as an example here:

https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html

[1] https://blogs.cisco.com/sp/global-internet-routing-table-rea...

Re: Is IPv6 only for the Rich? [pdf]

#30
I had IPv6 with Time Warner, but then they merged with Spectrum and my IPv6 magically disappeared. My networking and internet infrastructure knowledge is limited, so I have no clue why they would would be incentivized to do that. This happened some time last year.

EDIT: The only reason I know this is because at some point last year I asked google what my IP address was and was surprised to find it was an IPv6 address, but then later on apt broke, because one of the packages (node?) was only checking an IPv6 address and so now whenever I update I have to force apt to use IPv4.

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