Young Chinese are sick of working long hours • Hacker News Board

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#231

Post by hermitdev » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #56

As an engine tech for a diesel truck service center, I can seriously sympathize with where young chinese people are coming from. excessive overtime, even paid , can turn you into a miserable zombie pretty fast. somewhat quickly after my apprenticeship I was gifted quite a bit of nonsense overtime from the old timers. rotor turns, oil changes, timing, valve clearance, etc... were all heaped up on me until I was spendi…

At least you got paid for your overtime. Every salaried job I've had has been exempt from overtime. About 10 years ago, I spent a 6-month stretch pulling 100 hour weeks. Only went home every other day during the week, and that was mostly for a shower, an hour of sleep and a change of clothes. Other days, it was a shower on-site and a change of underwear & socks, no sleep. Got to go home on Friday nights, but back in by 8 on Saturdays for another 12 hours. Half-day on Sunday, work from home.

Long of it is: it wasn't worth it. Most of the time was spent fixing/implementing things that were poorly spec'd out or the "spec" was verbally (and poorly) communicated so often developer & manager disagreed on what was previously understood. But, hey, time to market, and all...

Last half of the project I told my manager to fuck off if he came to me with a verbal change to the spec (and I had permission from his manager to do so because I'd voiced the complaints and we had delivery date slippage). Put spec changes in writing, an email at least, so we'd have a written record of what was expected. That helped - a little.

edit: clarity

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#232

Post by harryh » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #176

harryh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting downvoted to hell, but FWIW I basically agree with you. This isn't really about rights but about economics. China used to be quite poor. So, on average, the Chinese people had to work pretty hard to raise their standard of living. But as China has gotten richer it's only natural that Chinese citizens will want to convert some of their hard earned wealth into more leisure time instead of more physical g…

Call me stupid but I cannot see how you are agreeing with your parent comment. It basically states "don't complain and get back to work", and you basically said it's normal for people to want their hard work to pay off and are thus pushing back against insane working schedules. I don't see the connection, help me here.

I was agreeing with this part:

"There's no such things as "human rights standards" for how much you should work per week."

A 40 hour work week isn't (in my view) a "human right" in the way that life, liberty and property are rights. It's an exchange of time/work for money. People can choose to work a lot or work a little depending on how they value their time vs their leisure.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#233

Post by emodendroket » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

swozey wrote: post #174

nimbius wrote: post #56

As an engine tech for a diesel truck service center, I can seriously sympathize with where young chinese people are coming from. excessive overtime, even paid , can turn you into a miserable zombie pretty fast. somewhat quickly after my apprenticeship I was gifted quite a bit of nonsense overtime from the old timers. rotor turns, oil changes, timing, valve clearance, etc... were all heaped up on me until I was spendi…

Well if you ever decide to get into pre-revenue startups like a lot of us you're basically primed and ready to commit to the 6mo-3yr+ hell of 70 hour weeks. You won't get overtime, ever, but maybe you'll walk out with a tiny percent of RSUs that don't expire or become worthless before you forget about them. Probably not.

One of the reasons I really prefer boring B2B shops that are making money.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#234

Post by emodendroket » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #201

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

There is such a thing as enlightened self-interest, where you consider not just what's good for yourself in the here-and-now but also whether the likely consequences to you (both natural and social) are going to be good. Dumping waste in the river may be cheaper now, but won't be if you get hit by a fine, or have to deal with an angry mob at the factory gates, or end up polluting your own drinking water supply.

The problem is you end up having to do a bunch of hedging like this. What if I have a lifetime supply of safe drinking water for my home and I am absolutely positive nobody will find out I'm dumping waste into the water? Or I'm sure I can blame it on someone else? If self-interest is all that matters this is a completely logical course of action (and I hardly need to point out that this isn't just some theoretical thing; numerous people have done just this).

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#235

Post by emodendroket » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:03 PM UTC

ben509 wrote: post #113

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

But you have neighbors downstream who will object to your contaminants polluting their use of the water. Externalities can be efficiently resolved by applying the Coase theorem.[1] Another common objection is that there are certain public services that can only be provided by the state, but we often find in practice that self-interested parties can develop a business model that addresses those needs.[2] [1] https://e…

> In this 1960 paper, Coase argued that real-world transaction costs are rarely low enough to allow for efficient bargaining and hence the theorem is almost always inapplicable to economic reality. Since then, others have demonstrated the importance of the perfect information assumption and shown using game theory that inefficient outcomes are to be expected when this assumption is not met.

Not so reassuring.

Let's think about a plausible scenario: I run an industrial facility and am secretly dumping industrial waste into the river. My neighbors start getting sick. When they analyze their drinking water, it shows the presence of a bunch of chemicals whose most probable source is my industrial facility. My neighbors realize I'm to blame, and complain to me about dumping chemicals into the water. I say I've got no idea what they're about and those chemicals must be from somewhere else. Obviously I refuse to hand over any records from my facility.

Getting nowhere, my neighbors file a lawsuit. Then we go through a years-long series of lawsuits where I deny any wrongdoing and maybe eventually have to pay some money, although it hardly brings back everyone killed by illnesses my facility caused.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#236

Post by emodendroket » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #210

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

You have a selfish interest in maintaining your society. This includes things like ensuring the less fortunate in your community are fed, clothed, and sheltered, and that you don't destroy the environment in which you live. But, as we often see, people act against their self-interest all the time.

That is a bit of a stretch. Maybe if you believe you'll burn in Hell otherwise.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#237

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

indoorfish wrote: post #87

sotojuan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about China, but at least the Japanese get something out of their crazy work agreement, at least traditional salaryman jobs. Lifetime employment, solid middle class salary forever, pension, etc. Some companies will do your taxes, help your kids go to a good school, and even set you up with someone to marry.

It's unbelievably respectful as an agreement between a profit focused business and their workers. It should be emulated.

Corporate feudalism where your daimyo actually protects you

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#238

Post by ChuckMcM » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:05 PM UTC

Ok, it occurs to me that they are re-creating the bay area where people work lots of hours, have long commutes, and don't make enough money to buy houses near where they work. Presumably that isn't intentional.

I expect it is not surprising that this isn't sustainable. Too many of my co-workers went through burnout, nasty divorces, or both from living this lifestyle. I consciously chose to balance family/work more and paid the price of slower advancement and missed opportunities. But in the process learned a lot about teams that that do work well with good balance.

There are a lot of things that conspire to work against sane work environments, not the least of which is the magical feeling when you push really hard and you get way more done than was expected. That in turn gets praise and glory which encourages managers to go back to that well again and again. Until it is the only way the team operates and everyone burns out.

As a manager I feel it is my job to protect my team from being burnt out in this way and push back on demands that cannot be met. But I am also trying to figure out inefficiencies and work with folks to get them what they need so that they aren't fighting internal processes as much as they are the problems they are trying to solve.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#239

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:09 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #99

marsrover wrote: post #8

> Li said that initially he felt he couldn’t be too be picky: he had majored in English, not in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and he had attended a low-ranked university. Many of his friends are unemployed. To me, this was the most interesting part of the article. It all sounds so familiar.

> sought-after science or technology fields Hell, I did major in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and unpaid overtime is an infuriating, unavoidable fact of my life.

I left my last company because of the miserable work culture. It was a life-changing product that a lot of people were excited about but I could barely bring myself to come into work every day. I felt so exploited by the employer that I gave notice before I had another job lined up. They really wanted me to stay so they offered me an extra month's salary if I would stay on for 2 more months, but I said no.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#240

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #181

vkou wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An understanding of history and ethics and psychology is also a valuable skill, but if that's your only skill, you'll be making lattes.

It's perfectly possible as a Chinese person in China to enjoy a solid middle-class lifestyle based only on your ability to speak English.

If you can actually speak English to a level high enough to communicate effectively with monoglot English speakers this is absolutely true. Unfortunately lots of degree programmes that aim for that level of fluency do not achieve it. I’ve worked in Shanghai for the past six years. This is definitely one of the cities with the highest fluency in English in China. Most educated professionals have some basic competency in reading English. That’s really the most you can assume.