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“The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

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Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#31

Post by verylittlemeat »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

I mean not to get all postmodern on you but I would argue most media stands alone to be interpreted. You can enhance or color a work by knowing factual and historical details but humans are pretty good at finding meaning in almost anything. Sometimes I think the less an object has on the surface the more we take it as a challenge to inscribe the thing with meaning.

On balance I think that's creativity in a nutshell and a good thing, though it can be taken to socially obnoxious lengths. The best kinds of "misreading" are where new and interesting ideas are born rather than just your run of the mill internet contrarianism. But the former type of creativity usually requires a kind of foresight and conviction we save for our revered term "artist."

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#32

Post by coldtea »

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

>Can anyone recommend other similar works of literature? I haven't read many books like this but I found Siddhartha, Narcissus and Goldmund and Steppenwolfe by Herman Hesse to be on the same lines (deal with existentialism).

If you enjoyed both Dostoyevsky, existentialism, and Hesse's work, you will like Colin Wilson's "The Outsider": https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Exploration-Rebellion-Creati...

which deals with both (and more) and expands on these concepts.

Wilson ended up doing more fringe work, but this was his critically acclaimed initial foray into writing.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#33

Post by pandaman »

clipperton wrote: post #19
throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

What sort of cultural points might be missed on a non-Russian person reading Dostoevsky? I just finished Crime and Punishment a couple months back and am curious, if you have the time.

GEB (Hofstadter's book) has a chapter about exactly this. Using Crime and Punishment as an example it is shown how different translations struggle with the lack of context.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#35

Post by narrator »

The thing that most impressed me about the Idiot was the extreme complexity of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. It made me think that Dostoevsky was vastly overstating the intelligence of the average Russian, or maybe they were all that smart back in the day. Some of the monologues in which the main characters explain the various interpersonal relationships and intrigues are as hard to follow as any I've ever read. The only thing that comes close is some of Pynchon's stuff.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#36

Post by brational »

pandaman wrote: post #33
clipperton wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of cultural points might be missed on a non-Russian person reading Dostoevsky? I just finished Crime and Punishment a couple months back and am curious, if you have the time.

GEB (Hofstadter's book) has a chapter about exactly this. Using Crime and Punishment as an example it is shown how different translations struggle with the lack of context.

ah shit. i also read C&P last year and GEB is on my shelf untouched. welp now i’m obligated...

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#37

Post by westoncb »

pandaman wrote: post #33
clipperton wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of cultural points might be missed on a non-Russian person reading Dostoevsky? I just finished Crime and Punishment a couple months back and am curious, if you have the time.

GEB (Hofstadter's book) has a chapter about exactly this. Using Crime and Punishment as an example it is shown how different translations struggle with the lack of context.

Haha—this is the first thing I've heard about GEB in years that makes me again somewhat interested in reading it. There was a point when I was a teenager where it seemed like probably the most interesting book on the planet, and I'd read a decent bit of it then; but years later—after studying a bunch of math, CS, and philosophy stuff—when I'd consider reading it there just didn't appear to be enough new meaty stuff of interest (though it still looks like an enjoyable packaging of many already familiar things). I also disagree fundamentally with the possibility of a material 'strange loop' resulting in another ontological category, so I feel like I'd be missing drive to reach the conclusion.

I'd be curious to hear any opinions on GEB by those with decently strong math, cs, and/or philosophy backgrounds—might it still be worth reading? (I mean it's damn long...)

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#38

Post by westoncb »

narrator wrote: post #35

The thing that most impressed me about the Idiot was the extreme complexity of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. It made me think that Dostoevsky was vastly overstating the intelligence of the average Russian, or maybe they were all that smart back in the day. Some of the monologues in which the main characters explain the various interpersonal relationships and intrigues are as hard to follow as any…

I'm tempted to think that's an artifact of a tendency in writers to give their characters thought processes resembling their own.

I don't think it's anything especially related to writing; I think everyone does it in their normal life: you want to think about how so and so is going to react to whatever, but the best we can really do is consider them as basically like ourselves +/- some known differences (which for many things is sufficient, but in my experience can also lead to absurdities due to how vastly differently some folks think).

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#39

Post by _blz2 »

jackschultz wrote: post #11
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

Interesting timing, because I just started Notes from Underground yesterday. I have to say, I'm a really big fan of Russian literature for some reason. Crime and Punishment, to me, seemed pretty straightforward, where we knew the problems Raskolnikov was having, and pretty sure of the ending where he'd confess and be punished (clearly from the title). Whereas The Brothers Karamazov if I remember, was somewhat more of…

Thank you, great suggestions. Adding it to my reading list.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#40

Post by _blz2 »

combatentropy wrote: post #28
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

I don't know, but I can't decide who I like more: Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. Have you read any Tolstoy? I loved Anna Karenina. It may be my favorite novel, period. Both writers are philosophical and psychological to a degree of depth and honesty that I'm just not used to.

I haven't. I've heard of it but didn't know it also as good (or better). Adding it to my reading list. Thanks.
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