“The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot • Hacker News Board

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#11

Post by jackschultz » Thu, May 10, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

Interesting timing, because I just started Notes from Underground yesterday. I have to say, I'm a really big fan of Russian literature for some reason.

Crime and Punishment, to me, seemed pretty straightforward, where we knew the problems Raskolnikov was having, and pretty sure of the ending where he'd confess and be punished (clearly from the title). Whereas The Brothers Karamazov if I remember, was somewhat more of a non straightforward plot. Where the characters were slightly less straightforward. I checked on wiki and said that Crime and Punishment was fourteen years before Karamazov, 1866 to 1880.

Besides Dostoevsky, I really liked a few of the Checkov short stories, and then Master and Margarita, which was written in the somewhat early 1900s. Not sure if those related to the existentialism you're talking about, but all unique.

I think my main like of both of these, and books in general, is the ability to see how similar humans are from centuries ago, and in different cultures. With the feeling of desire to be punished, or in a Checkov story, falling out of love with a woman and not really knowing how to end things. Being able to see relationships and similar thoughts from completely different people is very comforting. Otherwise we all could be stuck in our heads thinking about how everyone is different from you, where we're all more alike than we think.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#12

Post by joshjkim » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

i immediately fell in love with dostoevsky's work (just finished my third read of TBK), but it took me a long time to get into david foster wallace - now, i think of them as very similar. DFW is known for a lot of things (long books, footnotes on footnotes, early death) but to me at the end of the day both infinite jest and the pale king (his posthumous novel) are both incredible works that ultimately deal with existentialism. what made me think of them esp. is your comparison of C&P (cynical) and the Idiot (optimistic).

to me, infinite jest is the cynical but fun work (it's about a lot, but it's a lot about how people use drugs and entertainment and tennis(!) to (unsuccessfully) distract themselves from their larger existential problems), and pale king is the optimistic but more serious work (but with a strange reason for optimism, built in large part around the transcendence of being able to tolerate crazy boredom - it's a post-modern book about IRS employees for heaven's sake. there's a good dose of "we should probably be better citizens" - one of my fave sections describes how US taxpayers view themselves as "consumers of the government" vs. "participating citizens", digs really deep)

i actually like pale king slightly more even tho it's posthumous. it's also shorter (500 vs. 1000), i'd highly recommend starting there, though since you did TBK first, maybe you can just jump into infinite jest no problem =)

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#13

Post by minieggs » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

hcrisp wrote: post #10

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

Other existentialist works include: - "The Plague", by Albert Camus - "Metamorphisis", by Franz Kafka - "The Moviegoer", by Walker Percy - "The Bridge Over San Luis Rey", by Thornton Wilder I can't say they are enjoyable or relevant in the way Dostoevsky's books are.

If you enjoy these The Roads to Freedom series by Sartre I found great as well.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#14

Post by throwaway84742 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate.

Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an American novelist who would be anywhere near Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. My favorite US novel is “Grapes of Wrath”. Absolutely beatiful work when read in the language it was written in.

My favorite Russian novel is “War and Peace”. Russian school children are forced to read it when they’re like 15, and they don’t get it, of course. After re-reading it at 40 I was blown away. Such immense depth, such masterful pacing and character development.

I have recently re-read Crime and Punishment, another one of those books Russian school children are forced to read with no hope of understanding. I was likewise impressed with depth and sheer brutality of it. I wouldn’t say Raskolnikov hated the world. That’s not quite right, too black and white. Dostoevsky operates in the gray area. Raskolnikov was, at his core, a kind young man (see eg his empathy for Sonya), but an extreme nihilist, and he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, from which his nihilism offered him no escape. Struggling to reconcile his ideology with his humanity, he commits a stupid crime, for which his humanity makes him suffer immensely. If he really did despise everything, he would sleep well.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#15

Post by ikeyany » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

_blz2 wrote: post #7

ikeyany wrote: post #2

Doesn't the word 'savant' imply wisdom? Prince Myshkin is as naive as they come. I would think someone in his shoes wouldn't mind being walked all over like he is in the book. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

He is naive, but seems to be self aware. He does realize he is not street smart, but being naive implies he is unaware of this. Prince Myshkin doesn't want to change and well realizes the cunning nature of some people around him. He still isn't a savant, but calling him naive wouldn't be accurate either considering he did have diminished mental and physical faculties.

His words and actions show he is incapable of viewing things from others' perspectives, as demonstrated by trying to marry Nastasya. He may be aware of his own motives but he is very unaware of how the motives of others contrast.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#16

Post by wjn0 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

hcrisp wrote: post #10

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

Other existentialist works include: - "The Plague", by Albert Camus - "Metamorphisis", by Franz Kafka - "The Moviegoer", by Walker Percy - "The Bridge Over San Luis Rey", by Thornton Wilder I can't say they are enjoyable or relevant in the way Dostoevsky's books are.

I found The Plague to be quite enjoyable, while I've struggled through Notes from Underground and The Idiot (the latter moreso because of its length). The Stranger and The Fall by Camus are also incredible, I hope to read all of them in their original French sometime soon.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#17

Post by dalacv » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

You are not the first Russian I have heard say that about Dostoevsky.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#18

Post by Andre_Wanglin » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

American here. I could never "get into" American novelists like Hemingway and Steinbeck because I found their characters unrelatably thin automatons whereas Tolstoy's and Dostoevsky's characters are recognizably and deeply human. The only other English writer I have found who comes close is Graham Greene. I find it odd to think the socio-cultural understanding of a native is required to "get" the works of foreign authors as I consider such things ancillary to the point of art, which is to reveal what either cannot be or is insufficiently explained by direct language. I read to be able to get inside the minds of others and see what human existence is like in a way that is impossible from IRL interaction, not to imbibe the works as a socio-cultural commentary or to "deconstruct" them into the foundations for my own philosophical/political arguments/ramblings/delusions.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#19

Post by clipperton » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

What sort of cultural points might be missed on a non-Russian person reading Dostoevsky? I just finished Crime and Punishment a couple months back and am curious, if you have the time.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#20

Post by sevagh » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

I recently read Despair and Bend Sinister, both by Vladimir Nabokov, and enjoyed both greatly.

David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest also deals with existentialism.