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“The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

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Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#21

Post by sp332 »

tgragnato wrote: post #5
ikeyany wrote: post #2

Doesn't the word 'savant' imply wisdom? Prince Myshkin is as naive as they come. I would think someone in his shoes wouldn't mind being walked all over like he is in the book. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

The oxymoron "idiot savant" was used for the first time by John Down during his studies. The etymology is in the scientific literature. Today we would use a less controversial term like "savant syndrome"... It seems appropriate given the title of the book (and the plot). I always took it as an eulogy to the plasticity of the human intellect: we always have something to learn from anybody.

I think the title is playing on the phrase "idiot savant" to indicate Dostoevsky himself, as the savant who wrote "The Idiot".

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#22

Post by atmosx »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

> I have not found an American novelist who would be anywhere near Dostoevsky or Tolstoy.

I haven't found any Europeans either. Of course all this is art, thus a matter of personal perception, but D. and T. are the best authors I've came across so far.

I find the depth of D's characters breathtaking.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#24

Post by throwaway84742 »

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #18
throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

American here. I could never "get into" American novelists like Hemingway and Steinbeck because I found their characters unrelatably thin automatons whereas Tolstoy's and Dostoevsky's characters are recognizably and deeply human. The only other English writer I have found who comes close is Graham Greene. I find it odd to think the socio-cultural understanding of a native is required to "get" the works of foreign aut…

I don’t know man, I was poor myself at one point, and I’ve found Steinbeck’s characters to be very 3D and relatable. Grapes of Wrath is more like an impressionist painting. He doesn’t draw every detail, you’re supposed to transport yourself there and live it. If it helps, I have listened to The Grapes of Wrath as an audiobook, and I’ve found the version that Audible carries to be excellently narrated.

But you’re right, old school Russian writers did deliver character development in spades. Maybe at times a little too much, as in the case of Tolstoy. Though I suspect it was in part so that the reader still has something to hold onto as the story progresses, because characters sometimes disappear for a while.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#25

Post by _blz2 »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #14
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

I am Indian. You're right, one can never experience Russian literature in a way that a Russian does. But there are quite similarities in cultures shaped by religion because there are similarities in religion.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#26

Post by westoncb »

hcrisp wrote: post #10
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

Other existentialist works include: - "The Plague", by Albert Camus - "Metamorphisis", by Franz Kafka - "The Moviegoer", by Walker Percy - "The Bridge Over San Luis Rey", by Thornton Wilder I can't say they are enjoyable or relevant in the way Dostoevsky's books are.

I'll second "The Moviegoer." It's one of the best things I've read in a while, and I think there's a definite connection with 'Notes from Underground,' for instance. Both convincingly portray characters who are in certain ways despicable—more subtly with Moviegoer—and yet also relatable, especially in ways that derive from probably philosophically and/or socially induced mental conditions.

If you've read The Stranger, I'd describe The Moviegoer as a deeper take on a similar subject, with a more interesting backdrop.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#27

Post by westoncb »

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #18
throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

American here. I could never "get into" American novelists like Hemingway and Steinbeck because I found their characters unrelatably thin automatons whereas Tolstoy's and Dostoevsky's characters are recognizably and deeply human. The only other English writer I have found who comes close is Graham Greene. I find it odd to think the socio-cultural understanding of a native is required to "get" the works of foreign aut…

> I could never "get into" American novelists like Hemingway and Steinbeck because I found their characters unrelatably thin automatons ...

I pretty much agree with you on Hemingway, and maybe there are examples in Steinbeck's work, but at least in his case I can say that most of what I've read had a pretty high degree of realism and profundity. Maybe check out 'Winter of our Discontent' if you'd like another sample.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#28

Post by combatentropy »

_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

I don't know, but I can't decide who I like more: Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. Have you read any Tolstoy? I loved Anna Karenina. It may be my favorite novel, period.

Both writers are philosophical and psychological to a degree of depth and honesty that I'm just not used to.

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#29

Post by westoncb »

clipperton wrote: post #19
throwaway84742 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I don’t understand how Americans can “get into” Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. The cultural background required to understand them is simply not there, so you’re getting maybe 50% of what’s there, and that’s an optimistic estimate. Likewise, I’m not sure I fully understand Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. I enjoy their work, to be sure, but I’m afraid not to the extent Americans enjoy it. Thus far I have not found an…

What sort of cultural points might be missed on a non-Russian person reading Dostoevsky? I just finished Crime and Punishment a couple months back and am curious, if you have the time.

I'd be curious too. I read Crime and Punishment, Notes from Underground, The Double, and other short stories—and I found them to make quite a bit of sense.

I didn't get the sense that I'd extracted everything from "The Grand Inquisitor" (excerpt from The Brothers Karamazov), but I got the feeling it was just because it was more deep and compact, but would yield fruit with further study (even as an American).

Re: “The Idiot” Savant: On Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Idiot

#30

Post by pkghost »

combatentropy wrote: post #28
_blz2 wrote: post #6

This novel, along with 'Crime and punishement' deal with completely opposite personalities. One has a very optimistic view of the world, the other, Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, despises it and justifies violent crime with this mentality. Wonderful works, both of them. Unlike many, I read TBK first and decided to read Dostoevsky's other works and fell in love. Notes from the underground will always hold a sp…

I don't know, but I can't decide who I like more: Dostoevsky or Tolstoy. Have you read any Tolstoy? I loved Anna Karenina. It may be my favorite novel, period. Both writers are philosophical and psychological to a degree of depth and honesty that I'm just not used to.

If you haven't, try Ursula Le Guin. Her psychologies aren't rendered in quite as much detail as Dostoyevsky's—perhaps because she comes after and therefore needs to break less ground there?—but she's unique (in my experience of) sci-fi/fantasy for her deep grasp of and willingness to explore psychology, individually and collectively.
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