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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

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Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#281
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest a proper response is... "yeah, I know!"? To me, asking "what do you mean?" is a perfectly valid response to someone openly name calling people you know.

I presume from the general description the woman in question is a report so this is less gossip and more opening up to a manager. You’re dealing with another person sharing something that is probably emotionally difficult for them to say. I’d suggest a subtler approach than immediately busting in with the evidence requests. It’s a slower process which is neither immediately believing or disbelieving the accusation bu…

You're saying she found it emotionally difficult to describe her coworkers as "creepy"? I don't think so.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are people. Talk to them like people. If you’re so bad at socializing that you might accidentally harass someone, fix that! Don’t just retreat from the world because you can’t handle a basic skill. Edit: Interesting downvotes. Is it the suggestion that women are people, or the suggestion for self-improvement if you’re incapable of treating them accordingly?

I don't know why this is being downvoted. This should be the top response to this thread...

For the same reason that "Just don't drink, what's so hard about that?" would be in a discussion of alcoholism.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#283

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

> "Well, I might be socially awkward talking to this girl anyway, so I'll just avoid the complication." This is exactly how I am, but it has nothing to do with the #metoo movement. The reason is because I discovered at a young age that girls didn't want a ugly boy talking to them. It makes them uncomfortable, and as a result, it makes me uncomfortable. So in my mind, avoiding attractive women is being polite. Somethi…

I think if you approach someone with "this person is very attractive" at the fore of your mind, you're likely to present in a way that could be perceived as creepy, and maybe not approaching that person could be a good move. If very many people have that effect on you, it might be worth checking to see if you want to change something about yourself, though.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate Yeah I am wondering why someone would stick their neck out, especially if they have below-average social skills. Lots of personal liability for little personal gain, and #MeToo just publicized the existing uneasiness with professional interactions. It's not like any women helped when I was evaluating a career in…

The way I see it: 1. Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. If you can't not go there, then you have other problems to deal with first, and the sooner you go about that the better! 2. If making friends isn't crossing a line, it's therefore not sticking your neck…

You seem to be misinterpreting my comment:

a) My comment about nursing meant that the workplace barriers within opposite-gender mentoring exist on both sides of the spectrum...not acting as an excuse. Your reaction is just like telling the author to "get on with [her] life."

b) Who said anything about "weird fetishized platform of unobtanium"? I was just pointing out the legal realities that exist within the workplace.

c) The line is not in "workplace romance and sexual power politics land", the line is the HR department. Who may share your sense of humor and attitude. Or not.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice assume that men want to befriend women. It is understandable from a women point of view, but from a man perspective the friendzone is a big no-no. Most men would date a woman or not establish contact at all.

This is an off-the-charts creepy thing to say.

...that also happens to be true.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#286

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

We recently got a new female analyst. We invite her for lunch and sometimes have small talk. Thing is, there's literally zero chemistry. We can't include here in our dumb Skype chat because its usually filled with incredibly dumb offensive memes - so we just try to keep our laughs down. We tried invite her to video game night and even organized board games just because she wasn't into video games that much. But again…

I just don't buy into social stuff. People at work to work. As long as she is treated with respect and provided the same opportunities as everyone else it should be cool.

People have different interests and it is totally fine. At our place some people are into Fortnite, some people into crypto, some people into playing the piano.

So when Fortnite people stay after hours to put some games in, it doesn't mean I have to stay back and play with them.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you think is harassing might quite well disagree with target female view of what harassing is, complicated by the fact that HR department might disagree with you both. And should that whole thing become public, you'll be judged by the entire office, with the entire spectrum of views on what harassment is. Personally, as a male, you have absolutely nothing to gain, and everything to lose. The most rational thing…

> as a male, you have absolutely nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Having friendly, healthy relationships with your colleagues isn't valuable? Or just with the ones who are women? Some of my best friendships/allies/contacts have been women who I worked with. I'm very thankful for the opportunities they have provided me and the value they add to my life. The fact that you see /zero/ value in having genuine conn…

I think you are seeing a more extreme position than they were taking.

It's not that there isn't value in having friendly relationships with your colleagues no matter their gender. The issue comes up in comparing the value of a specific relationship with the potential costs of it (or attempting to create it).

Right or wrong, befriending a male colleague has virtually zero risk. The chances of anything happening to severely damage your career or social standing are essentially nil. Even in a severe situation, there isn't much you can do to cause a problem without acting in a pretty horrible way that's also documented. There just isn't much you can do there to really provoke a highly emotional reaction or scare HR.

The same cannot be said of attempting a relationship with a woman. People are very sensitive about sexual harassment and HR wants absolutely nothing to do with it. The exact lines for sexual harassment are necessarily a bit blurry. Even if they existed, continually just barely not crossing them would seem like harassment to me.

Is the friendly relationship with a woman coworker so much more valuable than a man that it is worth taking on additional risk? I don't think so.

I don't intend to have a particularly strong relationship with all my coworkers and I imagine most people are the same. This means I get to be choosy about which ones I engage in this way. The risk-reward ratio just doesn't seem favorable to engaging women in this way.

Now, personally speaking I have slightly more female friends than male friends, unless we're counting people I might talk to once every few years. My oldest friend, by far, is female. I would never suggest men should not be friends with women. That's insane. I'm just not sure what the incentives are for me to try to specifically befriend female coworkers.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#288
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit unfair to assume that people who are considered creepy must not know basic human interactions. A lot of people's initial opinion of you is guided subconsciously by how attractive you are. It's foolish to believe that looks don't play a huge role.

A lot of the attractiveness that they focus on isn't necessarily unchangeable, though. Many people can significantly improve the first impression they make by having a nice haircut that fits your head shape and clothes that fit your body shape well, match each other well, and aren't out of place for the current season.

So instead of "befriend her", you're suggesting "get new clothes and a nice haircut and then befriend her"? No thanks--I have enough friends.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting data point here ia that girls at all-girls schools tend to take much more interest in STEM subjects, which suggests that he issue might be more to do with social percpetions of what is for girls and boys rather than inherent interest differing between genders.

NB: "computers" != "STEM" In many science fields, women have reached near parity or are even in the majority now. Computer programming is much different.

Bio, Chem, (and Bio E, Chem E) and Med seemed to have good gender balance when I was in college 10 years ago. Physics, Mathematics, and the other Engineering disciplines seemed to have much more skew (my EE class was something like 40 men and 3 women).

Stanford CS was apparently 70:30 in 2015, an improvement over 80:20 just 3 years prior. As CS is increasingly seen as a pragmatic, lucrative career, we will likely continue to see the gender gap shrink. https://medium.com/@jcueto/race-and-gender-among-computer-sc...

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#290

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

I've seen women call men creepy for literally no reason (this is more common in pre-college aged girls), I assume it's equivalent to "you're ugly and not a person to me and I'm offended you tried to talk to me (even if it was purely school assignment related)". I've even met one girl who _wanted_ it to be a term of endearment (considering the above, there was no way that was going to work). I've also seen a shit-ton of creepy borderline sociopathic behavior from males, much of it gone uncalled out (by the supposedly sane males who were standing by), which often will lead to a woman calling the person creepy (and hopefully she isn't physicslly hurt in addition to merely the scare of something terrible about to happen).
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