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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

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Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#51
post #5

Interesting that popular perception is that it is hard to be a woman in STEM because you get so much unwanted attention, but in this case it was exactly the opposite. She wasn't able to find lab partners for projects in male majority classes and felt lonely.

A lot of us probably wouldn't immediately approach a woman in this situation because we don't want to be perceived as being "creepy". In professional settings I generally keep my distance until I've had enough brief casual interactions with someone that they seem comfortable enough with me not to assume something like that. Do I seem like I'm being a dick sometimes? Maybe, but I'm just genuinely trying not to make people uncomfortable (although in part because I've definitely got a bit of social anxiety).

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#52
post #26
post #2

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. As an unattractive computer nerd, I've been regularly reminded my entire life that I am creepy. Skipping.

I have a talented, and wonderful, female dev on my team. One thing though:. She has described to me some of the male coders as being "creepers". When I asked for specifics, she couldn't provide them. She simply stated it was a "feeling". The one commonality I found with the creepers is that they are pretty clearly below average in looks. The question is whether this is a correlation or a casual factor. But definitely…

It's funny how that works. I heard one man say to a woman that he didn't schedule a meeting for a particular time because he saw that she had a conflicting meeting.

Later that same woman described (to another woman) that the man had been "creeping on her calendar". If it weren't for society's deference to women's feelings, that would probably be read as a hostile comment.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#53
I think women avoid tech because they think tech guys are unattractive. Women go for professions where they believe they will be around attractive guys. Although, women are also interested in money, especially as they get older. When women realize tech leads to money, there are many dilemmas, and hence the "women in tech" movement.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont give up, learn the basics of human interactions and get interested in people, your life will change.

Advice like this is similar to telling a depressed person to just be happier.

The treatment social anxiety is often more exposure. Nothing is worse than just avoiding the things that give you anxiety.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#55
post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

An interesting data point here ia that girls at all-girls schools tend to take much more interest in STEM subjects, which suggests that he issue might be more to do with social percpetions of what is for girls and boys rather than inherent interest differing between genders.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#56
post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

I keep reading about a "women in tech" gap, but if it exists, it must be regional. I've lived and worked, as a programmer, in the Dallas, TX area for over 20 years across 5 different employers. There have always been _lots_ of women in technology-related roles, everywhere. The vast majority of them (as well as the vast majority of the men) have been Indian, though. Is this different in San Francisco/Silicon Valley?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#57
post #24

> Compared to almost any other industry, women are underrepresented in technology. Except for the many industries where women dominate like: Preschool and kindergarten education Nursing Accounting Social Work Psychology

Your quote agrees with you. Women are underrepresented in tech compared to other industries.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#58
> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career.

While I totally agree with this advice, I think this is very difficult to get men to do in the tech industry. There is a real concern, and to be honest I don't totally think invalid, that many men don't want to be perceived in any way as doing something that could be construed (or misconstrued) as harassment. I think there may be an subconscious/unconscious evaluation going on where men think "Well, I might be socially awkward talking to this girl anyway, so I'll just avoid the complication."

I think one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of the #MeToo movement is that men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate, which unfortunately results in more isolation of women, not less.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#59
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which also corresponded to home PCs and gaming consoles becoming common. So computers became more about a hobby with often limited social interaction as opposed to being solely about something that college students and adults pursuing computing as a profession did. Which arguably also led to this idea that if you haven’t been doing computing recreationally since you were a kid you obviously are not Passionate enough…

I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.

I’m honestly not so sure about that. The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small.

And it really isn’t true of just about any other branch of engineering or science. How many bridges do you think someone majoring in civil engineering has designed?

The fact that a lot of CS curricula only address those who have been programming as a hobby is a bug not a feature.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#60
What I read from this is that women are less interested than men in a job by itself and more in what the job fits their desired lifestyle.

I and many other programmers I've talked to got into the career they have because the craft is naturally compelling to them, with the lifestyle of programming being secondary or even tertiary. I don't think most male programmers do what they do because they particularly like each other, nor are they necessarily interested in an anti-social atmosphere. Sure, some are going to have contrary preferences, but if it wasn't generally true that male programmers are primarily interested in their craft, then I wouldn't expect the most horrendously competitive tech companies wouldn't still get plenty of male applicants and even fewer female applicants.

Put simply, I think tech companies could all be run like sweat shops, and you'd see nearly as many men working for them and probably fewer women.

Yet again, we have a woman who enters an arena that women don't want to enter(by her own account) and requests that it be changed to fit her and other women. These are the suggestions she makes for making tech more hospitable to women:

* Create communities (set people up with “buddies”, mentors, lunch groups)

* Emphasize tech’s potential to impact humans and community wellbeing

* Invest in social events

* Offer opportunities for engineers to do user- and team-facing work

* Confront unconscious bias

* Go befriend a girl in your class or company

As a man, these are all distractions from getting my work done. I am intellectually excited about software development but, when it comes down to it, I want to show up to the office, accomplish things, and go home. Being overly concerned with the wellbeing of others is not that interesting, and I don't have a job to make friends; if I make friends, that's through happenstance. I want to be the best at what I do, but I don't need communities/buddies, social events, unconscious bias training, or the opposite sex to do this.

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company

I wish someone would tell women the same thing of men.

Coming from someone who has more female friends than male, there's a lot that can go wrong in a man trying to befriend women, especially at work. On many occasions, simply being friendly has clearly lead to a woman perceiving that I was interested in her. If you're lucky, you're met with distance and radio silence, but most men are going to be treated as "creepy". As engineering is going to be made up of a lot of nerds who already have experience in being "creepy", there's little incentive for those nerds to willingly subject themselves to rejection when they weren't even looking to court these women in the first place.

Again, I have lots of female friends, including some from work, but that's because it took an incredible amount of effort to get to know them without setting off the "creepy" flag. For most guys, this effort isn't worth it.

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