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Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

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Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#31

Post by mbrumlow »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #10
mbrumlow wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have any proof that time is steady. It may just appear as steady. Much like clock based games way back when. You could speed up or slow down the clock rate and the game would be run the same. Only a external observer out side of the system would be able to detect the change. Edit. But I guess you were talking about our perception of time.

If there is an outside observer with their own sense of time, how would we know which time is real? Are they both? It would seem that, even if not steady to the outside observer, our time is still steady. In a world where physics depends upon time, is it even possible for time to not be steady?

When I was typing that I was thinking the hypothetical observer. I don't think there can actually be one with respect to actual time. But to be able to think about how maybe it does work you have to think as though there was a an ability to observe the universe in such a way.

But you are right, if there was a outside observer the same stands, just for that observers observer -- hypothetically.

> In a world where physics depends upon time, is it even possible for time to not be steady?

I think so. Physics is a construct that we have to describe how our universe works.

Lets think about things in "ticks" where a "tick" is just one particle or I should say interaction happening in our universe. Or better think of our universe as a big state machine. Between each new state there are many ticks arranging the matter and getting ready for the next observed state. And by observed state I mean observed by the universe -- or realized. Now we have two time domains to think about. One, tick time. How long is a tick? Would it matter if some ticks took "longer" than others. Then you have the notion of time outside of a tick, that gives ticks its "tick time" or what makes some ticks "longer" than others. If this is anywhere near the case then time outside of the umbrella of each realized universe state does not matter.

I may not be doing a good job of getting the notion out of my head. But try to think of it if you were in a video game. Lets take it back to maybe the "Max Payne" days given it is a game that has some dealings with time. If you were playing the game on a laptop and closed the lid and the computer suspended would Max be able to detect or care even that the time between rendering one frame the other went from something like 60FPS (well back then 12FPS) to 2 hours our observed time to render the next frame? We would be the hypothetical observer. Max would not have a clue.

Anyways thinking about how time works is always fun. About all we can do is learn how time works from our observable position.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#32

Post by dmvaldman »

This is a half-formed thought, but if you are blind, how would you perceive space? You can feel against a wall, but you will only be correlating time with locomotion (how long it takes to move your hand against a wall at a certain force) to create space. Spatial reasoning becomes temporal reasoning. (Ignore for the moment you can directionally locate by hearing). It makes this result even more fascinating to me that they are biologically linked to the same part of the brain, rather than one part compensating for another.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#33

Post by Pimpus »

blueprint wrote: post #11
Pimpus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've developed an intuitive understanding of what people mean by this term after experiencing its absence and subsequent return. It's the judge, the classifier, the model-maker; it filters incoming information and tries to make sense of it, usually distorting it in the process. Without it, the outside world is strange and magical but also chaotic and overwhelming. But that's just a description, the feeling of its pre…

It's not a matter of what it is in Buddhism, the term doesn't refer to an existent thing as it is, THAT is the problem. It's used only by those who don't perceive. Let me give you an example. Think of a mathematician who knows their shit. Now think of that mathematician using an ambiguous term that lacks rigor and therefore introduces inaccuracies in a range of cases. A lay person who doesn't understand the term may…

I don't understand, is the "ego" just an illusion?

Not the one who downvoted you btw. I did read somewhere that Buddhism doesn't have the concept of ego, which genuinely confuses me as there seems to be a very real process occurring in our brains that labels and categorizes information, which introduces distortion and the "ignorance" that leads to delusion and suffering (in the Buddhist view).

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#34

Post by blueprint »

swamp40 wrote: post #16
blueprint wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The greatest masters in the history of the human world such as Gautama Buddha never taught or used the term "ego". That ought to tell humans something.

Wasn't it Freud only 100 years ago who popularized the modern usage of the word 'ego' as everyone uses it today?

Yes, however, people a long long time ago have used variations of the term. Why do you think deteriorated forms of Buddhism nowadays have attached themselves to the term ego? The term has got a certain characteristic which those who propagate deteriorated truth need to use. They talk about losing your ego for a reason. So, I wonder if you've done this exercise before... have you ever tried to come up with as concrete and rigorous a statement of the definition of the term ego as you can? It doesn't have to be so profound nor complicated. When people lose their ego and don't gain a true ego in replacement it means in real life they lose themselves and die forever. (Buddha taught people to save their own self, remain themselves, and live forever.) Therefore people's usage of the term must be understood to be imprecise and subtextually cover too wide a range. You never hear of a mathematician being fairly called egotistical for insisting it's incorrect to state 1+1 = 1 or 3. Buildings and bridges made by those who believe it can be so will collapse. Then why do we accept this lack of rigor in subjects so important as our mental and spiritual health? Only because we've been compromised by something already. However, many influential people still aren't willing to admit this.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#35

Post by Pimpus »

ropeadopepope wrote: post #24
Pimpus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, have you ever had depression? Depression has been linked to low hippocampus size[0]. Would be interesting to see how the drug mentioned by the article affects spatial reasoning and sense of time. [0]: https://gizmodo.com/5874433/the-pill-that-could-cure-depress... (I once read about a differently-named drug which increases hippocampus size and treats depression but I'm unable to find it now)

The only time I've ever been "depressed" was when I was also addicted to high reward behaviors. I know these high reward behaviors are linked to both depression and a lack of short and long term memory. It sounds like high reward behaviors (ie: addictions), small hippocampus size, spatial awareness and time awareness could all be interconnected. Or maybe they're separate causes for the same phenomena. I don't know, b…

> It sounds like high reward behaviors (ie: addictions), small hippocampus size, spatial awareness and time awareness could all be interconnected. Or maybe they're separate causes for the same phenomena.

Yeah, I suspect these are all deeply related. Fascinating.

> I wonder how much it costs to get my brain scanned.

Sounds like something that could bankrupt you stateside. If you want to get it done cheaply and by qualified people, there's always Eastern Europe :)

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#36

Post by blueprint »

Pimpus wrote: post #33
blueprint wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a matter of what it is in Buddhism, the term doesn't refer to an existent thing as it is, THAT is the problem. It's used only by those who don't perceive. Let me give you an example. Think of a mathematician who knows their shit. Now think of that mathematician using an ambiguous term that lacks rigor and therefore introduces inaccuracies in a range of cases. A lay person who doesn't understand the term may…

I don't understand, is the "ego" just an illusion? Not the one who downvoted you btw. I did read somewhere that Buddhism doesn't have the concept of ego, which genuinely confuses me as there seems to be a very real process occurring in our brains that labels and categorizes information, which introduces distortion and the "ignorance" that leads to delusion and suffering (in the Buddhist view).

Illusion? It depends on the exact range of your definition of the term.

What exists itself is the truth. Who can see it as it is? No one can speak of something they haven't seen as it is.

Every living thing suffers.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#37

Post by Pimpus »

blueprint wrote: post #34
swamp40 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it Freud only 100 years ago who popularized the modern usage of the word 'ego' as everyone uses it today?

Yes, however, people a long long time ago have used variations of the term. Why do you think deteriorated forms of Buddhism nowadays have attached themselves to the term ego? The term has got a certain characteristic which those who propagate deteriorated truth need to use. They talk about losing your ego for a reason. So, I wonder if you've done this exercise before... have you ever tried to come up with as concrete…

I'm finding your posts intriguing despite disagreeing with you. Do you have any sources for further reading?

> Why do you think deteriorated forms of Buddhism nowadays have attached themselves to the term ego?

Is it deterioration or just accepting new ideas? I don't think that 2000-year-old Buddhism had all the answers, or would even be useful to a Westerner (I do feel that we are mostly exposed to "deteriorated" forms of Buddhism, but maybe it's for the better).

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#38

Post by shiven »

I am not sure what to make of this. My spatial sense is immaculate - I can sense direction/orientation extremely well - I have near-perfect recall of "way to destination" - so much so that after having visited any previously unknown location once, I can navigate back to it years later without much effort.

Time, on the other hand, is a complete mystery to me - I can not tell if a few minutes have passed or hours. I am totally dependent on my clock and calendar to be a functional adult. Similarly, I have no sense of rhythm, beats etc. Nada, zilch, zero.

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#39

Post by Pimpus »

blueprint wrote: post #36
Pimpus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand, is the "ego" just an illusion? Not the one who downvoted you btw. I did read somewhere that Buddhism doesn't have the concept of ego, which genuinely confuses me as there seems to be a very real process occurring in our brains that labels and categorizes information, which introduces distortion and the "ignorance" that leads to delusion and suffering (in the Buddhist view).

Illusion? It depends on the exact range of your definition of the term. What exists itself is the truth. Who can see it as it is? No one can speak of something they haven't seen as it is. Every living thing suffers.

No offense, but this wasn't helpful to me. I feel like you're speaking in riddles now. Do you have any sources I could read up on?

Re: Brain cells that track location in space appear to also count beats in time

#40

Post by phkahler »

ropeadopepope wrote: post #8

In short, time awareness and spatial awareness are linked. Does that mean if you increase your spatial reasoning skills, you could increase the accuracy of your perception of time? I ask because my spatial reasoning skills suck and so does my sense of time. The possibility of increasing both of these skills at the same time instead of just the one changes the cost/benefit equation for me.

Go to a reasonably safe area and practice the following: Stand still, look around, select a target, close your eyes, turn/walk to the target and reach out to touch it. Then open your eyes to see how close you are. To do this well you need to envision your location and movement in your head. I don't know if practicing this or a variant of it will help because you eliminate the visual feedback and rely on the brains "projection" based on dead reckoning. It does not surprise me that doing this well requires an accurate internal tracking of time as well as position because speed determines the rate of change in position.

You may also want to try remote controlled toys - cars, planes, drones. Controlling them well requires that you be able to transform your position into the vehicle. Beginners tend to turn the wrong way when the vehicle is coming toward them.

Now that I think of it, don't walk around at first. Just face away from a door, look around, then shut your eyes and try to turn around and reach for the doorknob. If by chance you make a real experiment of this or find a way to get better at it, please write about it!

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