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NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

reuters.com

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Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#331

Post by dsfyu404ed »

stickdogg wrote: post #287
fulafel wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking this view lets the voters off the hook too easily. Citizens often genuinely want things that are bad for a bunch of other people. Look at the immigration/refugee related polling for example. Or climate change inaction. Sure the public opinion is affected by PR efforts, but people still possess facilities for critical thinking, and everyone knows to be critical about political claims rather than take them at fa…

The truth is that not "everyone" knows to be critical about political nonsense. Plus, most people I encounter in this state of PA have no idea what the term "critical thinking" implies; let alone deliberately practice it. PA is in the dark ages compared to Seattle. It's extremely sad to see.

Hate to break it to you but critical thinking is just as lacking in progressive urban areas. Seattle, Boston, Denver, NYC, (let alone the valley) are chock full of idiots who do not think about how public policy impacts anyone but themselves. You just don't judge as critically when it's your people.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#332

Post by haZard_OS »

jMyles wrote: post #302
fulafel wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. Voters wanted wars and a surveillance state after 9/11. Etc. (Same goes for the good things that the public sector does, of course) Yes there is inertia and self-perpetuation, like in any organisations, but not overwhelmingly much.

This seems like a differently-worded variant of "we get the government we vote for." But that conclusion has been convincingly rejected by sound political science for quite a while now. The policy preferences of the voting constituency in any given national election are not strongly correlated to policy results. This is shown convincingly in Benjamin Ginsberg's book, "Do Elections Matter?" I strongly recommend this b…

I'm interested in the concept but do you have a suggestion for a book published more recently? "Do Elections Matter?" was published almost 30 years ago.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#333

Post by dang »

scrumption wrote: post #38
BookmarkSaver wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. Like what? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. >What exactly does the NSA do? Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. ??? Sounds like you know absolutely nothing about espionage. Maybe you are right, but intelligence agencies don't talk about their activities, even their successes, for very goo…

>Like what? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. Uh, the constant mass shootings that have occurred over the past year wherein, 100% of the time, the perp was already known to police and FBI and had a very public troubling online presence detailing their years of mental instability and virulent racism? >intelligence agencies don't talk about their activities, even their successes, for very good…

> The hell are you talking about?

Crossing into incivility like this isn't ok on HN and will eventually get you banned, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this. Please don't do political flamewars on HN either.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#334

Post by dang »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #57
scrumption wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency Try having even the tiniest bit of an idea what you are talking about.

You crossed into incivility repeatedly in this flamewar, and here you cross into outright bannable offense. Could you please not do this when commenting here? If someone else is completely wrong, and you react like this, all you do is make them seem more credible, and discredit what you know.

What would work much better is to wait until you can comment neutrally, and then comment neutrally with information we can all learn from.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#335

Post by dang »

scrumption wrote: post #44
mkempe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is obviously flawed: Hillary Clinton received more money, spent vastly more money, and lost. [edit] Down-voting does not change the above facts.

You've missed the point entirely, on purpose I imagine. The impact of Citizens United is primarily with regard to corporate lobbying, not campaign contributions. Super PACs, the biggest travesty to come out of Citizens United, explicitly CANNOT contribute to election campaigns or specific parties.

This is another comment that crossed into incivility. If you want to keep posting to HN, we need you to follow the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#336

Post by jrochkind1 »

stickdogg wrote: post #289
DSingularity wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they behave the way they do because this is their strategy by design. I feel that during the Cold War strategists realized that being a democracy is a vulnerability. Were the soviets actually willing to go there and exploit it by manipulating the American public? Who knows. But that’s not how military strategy is created.

The Russians and Chinese manipulate the American public every day all day. Not to mention the Americans and Western Europeans with money and influence whose interests align with theirs. How do you think we ended up with president chump?

And likewise, the Americans do their best to manipulate the public of dozens of other countries, daily.

The shocking thing to Americans is they thought they were too powerful to ever be on the receiving end.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#337

Post by jrochkind1 »

blitmap wrote: post #253
anoncoward778 wrote: post #17

Automatically collecting everyone's cell phone data, has software automatically installed in Smart TV's everywhere, monitors your online footprint (emails, social media[of course]). All those warning from Snowden all those secret software reveals from wikileaks an untold amount of funding from congress with virtually no oversight. And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. What exactly d…

I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. I wish as soon as the information could be de-classified the NSA would publish about attacks it stopped. Doing so can expose sources and methods used to collect the information, so not everything would become known - but it would certainly help to benefit the agency and its credibility in the eyes of the governed. That said, I don't want to live…

// A member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks.

“It was, ‘Huh, hello? What are we doing here?’” said Geoffrey Stone, a University of Chicago law professor, in an interview with NBC News. “The results were very thin.” //

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nsa-program-stopped-no-te...

"U.S. Mass Surveillance Has No Record Of Thwarting Large Terror Attacks, Regardless Of Snowden Leaks"

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/u-s-mass-surveillance-ha...

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#338

Post by mr_spothawk »

stickdogg wrote: post #293
dpwm wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. It almost certainly does. Whilst congress makes some pretty ludicrously predictably bad decisions, there must be some reports of the NSA's effectiveness. It's just whom it benefits that's in doubt. Let's face it: the number of homicides in general absolutely dwarf the maximum potential of terrorist attacks without NSA intervention. I would argu…

[flagged]

im actually bummed that ur comment got so mamy downvotes, and i don't disagree with u.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#339

Post by mirimir »

dpwm wrote: post #259
blitmap wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. I wish as soon as the information could be de-classified the NSA would publish about attacks it stopped. Doing so can expose sources and methods used to collect the information, so not everything would become known - but it would certainly help to benefit the agency and its credibility in the eyes of the governed. That said, I don't want to live…

> I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. It almost certainly does. Whilst congress makes some pretty ludicrously predictably bad decisions, there must be some reports of the NSA's effectiveness. It's just whom it benefits that's in doubt. Let's face it: the number of homicides in general absolutely dwarf the maximum potential of terrorist attacks without NSA intervention. I would argu…

> With a more complete understanding of the state and its origins, it seems far more likely that the NSA is about protecting the state than the people. If it is protecting people, it is the people the state is there to protect.

Yes, indeed.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#340

Post by ndesaulniers »

jMyles wrote: post #67
anoncoward778 wrote: post #17

Automatically collecting everyone's cell phone data, has software automatically installed in Smart TV's everywhere, monitors your online footprint (emails, social media[of course]). All those warning from Snowden all those secret software reveals from wikileaks an untold amount of funding from congress with virtually no oversight. And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. What exactly d…

> Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests? That has never been their practice ever. Our government spent the better part of a century not only allowing 3.5 million of us to live…

A "paperclip maximizer" of sorts?
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