I guess we ultimately lost the battle because normal people don't give a shit about this anymore....
I am not sure what precedent this sets for the future.
NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
281–290 of 360 posts
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#282Automatically collecting everyone's cell phone data, has software automatically installed in Smart TV's everywhere, monitors your online footprint (emails, social media[of course]). All those warning from Snowden all those secret software reveals from wikileaks an untold amount of funding from congress with virtually no oversight. And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. What exactly d…
> Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests? That has never been their practice ever. Our government spent the better part of a century not only allowing 3.5 million of us to live…
> But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests?
I don't think this is giving public servants enough credit. Politicians are a little more self-serving than those working in the agencies, so don't paint all public servants with the same brush. The problem is that what public servants believe is in the public interest just doesn't align with what you believe is in the public interest. There's always going to be a little give and take like this, and this evolution is what makes democratic societies effective.
That said, there can't be any given and take without oversight, and that's the real problem here. No doubt NSA employees believe what they're doing is important and effective, but is it really? That's a debate we simply can't have because of the secrecy, and public trust in these institutions has eroded sufficiently, possibly with good reason, that the public can't simply have faith in the NSA.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. I wish as soon as the information could be de-classified the NSA would publish about attacks it stopped. Doing so can expose sources and methods used to collect the information, so not everything would become known - but it would certainly help to benefit the agency and its credibility in the eyes of the governed. That said, I don't want to live…
> I sincerely doubt the argument that dragnet surveillance has no effect. It almost certainly does. Whilst congress makes some pretty ludicrously predictably bad decisions, there must be some reports of the NSA's effectiveness. It's just whom it benefits that's in doubt. Let's face it: the number of homicides in general absolutely dwarf the maximum potential of terrorist attacks without NSA intervention. I would argu…
> I live in the UK where we get some limited news about attacks stopped by dragnet surveillance.
But there's no way to verify this, correct? Like, they could have used human intelligence and simply reported that dragnet surveillance was the source.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. Voters wanted wars and a surveillance state after 9/11. Etc. (Same goes for the good things that the public sector does, of course) Yes there is inertia and self-perpetuation, like in any organisations, but not overwhelmingly much.
I am not so sure about that. Did voters ever vote on the surveillance state? Wars like Iraq, Vietnam, etc, were created by lies that would not exist without this agency. The WMD lies and Gulf of Tonkin lies have been well documented in respectable news outlets, so it is not like these are at all conspiracy theories. Yesterday was May 4th, the anniversary of when the agency in government murdered unarmed, peaceful war…
I'm sure we both know that voters vote for representatives, not laws, so that question is not applicable. But in general, there has been popular support for things like "patriot act", and wars, as measured in polls.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests? That has never been their practice ever. Our government spent the better part of a century not only allowing 3.5 million of us to live…
I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. Voters wanted wars and a surveillance state after 9/11. Etc. (Same goes for the good things that the public sector does, of course) Yes there is inertia and self-perpetuation, like in any organisations, but not overwhelmingly much.
Watch zeitgeist on YouTube and you can discover the true story of what occurred on 9/11.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. Voters wanted wars and a surveillance state after 9/11. Etc. (Same goes for the good things that the public sector does, of course) Yes there is inertia and self-perpetuation, like in any organisations, but not overwhelmingly much.
> I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. The voters vote what they're told to -- and they're told to by those in power who can pay for campaigns, have their pals in party positions, etc. Plus, the voters get all kinds of stuff that benefit the powerful that they never explicitly asked or voted for, and that were never on any platform.…
I know that's right.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think this is attributing too much agency to "government". Voters wanted slavery, and so public officials supported it. The voters vote what they're told to -- and they're told to by those in power who can pay for campaigns, have their pals in party positions, etc. Plus, the voters get all kinds of stuff that benefit the powerful that they never explicitly asked or voted for, and that were never on any platform.…
Taking this view lets the voters off the hook too easily. Citizens often genuinely want things that are bad for a bunch of other people. Look at the immigration/refugee related polling for example. Or climate change inaction. Sure the public opinion is affected by PR efforts, but people still possess facilities for critical thinking, and everyone knows to be critical about political claims rather than take them at fa…
The truth is that not "everyone" knows to be critical about political nonsense. Plus, most people I encounter in this state of PA have no idea what the term "critical thinking" implies; let alone deliberately practice it. PA is in the dark ages compared to Seattle. It's extremely sad to see.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#288Hey just a reminder the state is here to control you and protect property nothing more nothing less.
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests? That has never been their practice ever. Our government spent the better part of a century not only allowing 3.5 million of us to live…
I believe they behave the way they do because this is their strategy by design. I feel that during the Cold War strategists realized that being a democracy is a vulnerability. Were the soviets actually willing to go there and exploit it by manipulating the American public? Who knows. But that’s not how military strategy is created.
The Russians and Chinese manipulate the American public every day all day. Not to mention the Americans and Western Europeans with money and influence whose interests align with theirs. How do you think we ended up with president chump?
Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report
#290Automatically collecting everyone's cell phone data, has software automatically installed in Smart TV's everywhere, monitors your online footprint (emails, social media[of course]). All those warning from Snowden all those secret software reveals from wikileaks an untold amount of funding from congress with virtually no oversight. And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. What exactly d…
> What exactly does the NSA do? It's a military signals-intelligence organization. > Whom are they protecting? It's hardly monolithic. Imagine Catch 22 on steroids. Likely each power center is primarily protecting itself, and its funding. Overall, they're protecting the military-industrial complex. The 1%. The powers that be. Edit: Whoever pays the bills.
Good breakdown.