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NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

reuters.com

201–210 of 360 posts

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#201
post #137
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem to be true at all: Wikipedia says there was around 4 million slaves in the 1860 census while the total number of incarcerated Americans in 2010 doesnt reach 2.5 millions.

I didn't say total slaves vs. total prisoners - I said black men. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander... edit: I can't imagine why I'm being downvoted here. My statement was utterly correct, and when challenged I cited a credible source. What'd I do wrong?!

Although I tend to see most ultra-liberal conspiracy babble as nonsense, experience with my own psychology and observation of those around has led me to believe that white male fragility is a real thing. You're being downvoted because people on HN, who are by and large financially secure, well-educated technocrats (like myself!), feel like there's something deeply irritating about your post, whether or not it is statistically accurate.

I've had enough experience doing volunteer work with people trying to complete their GED in/after prison that - despite the fact that I despise ultra-left fresh-out-of-college political babble (it's so disconnected from reality and non-constructive that it's reasonable to squash it with the rest of the noise) - I do believe that there are deep structural injustices in American society, and we really don't have a coherent story for how to fix them.

That shift in attitude was born of experience that is not universally shared, though. Most people have their hobbies and their jobs and their families and their insecurities and their resentments, and they don't take kindly to strangers telling them that the American social structure that passively benefits them and makes their lifestyle possible is built in part on some very deep nastiness.

Which isn't to point fingers, or level blame, or shame anyone. Those are the rhetorical techniques of demagogues, and they have neither truth value nor do they tend to point society in a better direction. It's just to say that the psychological landscape is complicated.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we'll just have to wait for another whistleblower to confirm they are lying about it again. At least it isn't "wittingly."

Except they never lied about that according to Snowden's documents. They never recorded all domestic phone calls.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-witting...

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for that reputable source -- but I'm still missing your implication. Do you mean to say that the NSA is primarily concerned with foreign intelligence rather than combating domestic terrorism? Then why so much domestic spying, the entire point of this conversation thread? Furthermore, are you trying to tell me you think they've done a good job in their counterintelligence work? Honestly, given what we have obse…

>Then why so much domestic spying, the entire point of this conversation thread? Oh yeah, that makes sense. Let's only worry about what other nations are doing, until their agents and activities enter our country. Then we might as well stop bothering. Makes sense. What are you referring to? Do you have a security clearance? Do you think that other nations aren't constantly attacking our electronic infrastructure and…

> What in the world makes you think that you would be aware of any success whatsoever of intelligence gathering in the Middle East? What makes you think that the situation couldn't have gotten much worse that it did?

To the extent that the expanded sigint is used for actual defense, it's trivial to expect more data to have helped (at least marginally) with the national defense aims of the agency. This is not controversial and somewhat trivial to point out.

The issue is that the NSA's behavior violated the 4th amendment rights of millions of people. You suggest that the ends justify the means. I respect that opinion and may even agree with it, but that doesn't matter.

What matters is that the law was broken in the creation of the domestic surveillance program and nobody is currently serving time in prison for breaking it.

The bill of rights exists because of very hard earned lessons about the appropriate relationship between the people and the government. We let a handful of officials ignore the 4th amendment and steal billions of dollars in taxpayer dollars to build the infrastructure to do so.

This is not just a major violation of rights but a major financial crime. The program should be cancelled, the officials responsible jailed, and the equipment auctioned off so that the proceeds can be returned to taxpayers.

Many of our rights as citizens give criminals and innocent people various protections against law enforcement. This is not a design flaw.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Snowden's documents, the NSA isn't collecting all data out of Room 641A, just data sent to or from specific foreign targets with surveillance court orders, contradicting your claim.

Could you provide a source for your claim? You can read about TEMPORA here [1], which contradicts you: "We keep the full sessions for 3 working days and the metadata for 30." The filtering you're talking about would happen in POKERFACE, which applies after intake into TEMPORA. Basically: Backhaul -> TEMPORA (3 day buffer) -> POKERFACE (scrubs data by policy such as US citizen status) -> XKeyscore 1. http://www.spiege…

TEMPORA is a GCHQ system, not an NSA system, and has nothing to do with Room 641A. Additionally, it cannot record all US phone conversations as you claimed because domestic phone calls do not leave the US.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they never lied about that according to Snowden's documents. They never recorded all domestic phone calls.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4521220/james-clapper-witting...

1. James Clapper is not in the NSA.

2. The NSA never recorded all domestic phone calls, and there is no evidence that they ever did, so neither Clapper nor the NSA lied about that.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#207
post #107
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whom are they protecting? Cause it sure is not the average citizen. But was there ever any indication to the contrary? How did we as Americans convert to the myth that our government, let alone our "intelligence" agencies, have any inclination to protect us or advance our interests? That has never been their practice ever. Our government spent the better part of a century not only allowing 3.5 million of us to live…

If your comment is meant to be sarcastic, then I am failing to see it... Could you explain what you mean by enslaving as prisoner? So you would let a rapist free or what?

There's a lot of people in prison for things that they shouldn't be, like marijuana possession. Especially blacks and latinos. The US jails about 10 times more people than other developed nations - there's something very wrong with that picture. In the land of the free you actually have the least amount of people actually living free...

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#208
post #3

I think the bottom line is that the American people do not really mind the NSA doing this. I suspect this is because most people do not realize just how powerful and privacy-invading metadata surveillance is, or how the dataset does not need to be added to indefinitely to have tremendous value to law enforcement (for appropriate and inappropriate uses) once it exists at sufficient scale.

I think the people that do realize, short of armed rebellion, can do very little. If the people who control 60% of the nations wealth want to do this, all the complaining in the world isn't going to do anything.

[deleted]

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#209
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say total slaves vs. total prisoners - I said black men. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander... edit: I can't imagine why I'm being downvoted here. My statement was utterly correct, and when challenged I cited a credible source. What'd I do wrong?!

Although I tend to see most ultra-liberal conspiracy babble as nonsense, experience with my own psychology and observation of those around has led me to believe that white male fragility is a real thing. You're being downvoted because people on HN, who are by and large financially secure, well-educated technocrats (like myself!), feel like there's something deeply irritating about your post, whether or not it is stat…

Such a tedious comment to say nothing at all.

Re: NSA collected 500M U.S. call records in 2017, a sharp rise: official report

#210

Automatically collecting everyone's cell phone data, has software automatically installed in Smart TV's everywhere, monitors your online footprint (emails, social media[of course]). All those warning from Snowden all those secret software reveals from wikileaks an untold amount of funding from congress with virtually no oversight. And yet tons of bad things keep happening to regular citizens in the US. What exactly d…

Your message sounds kind of ominous but I'd like to point out hanlon's razor. The NSA sounds like another public sector organization that just tries to spend us much money as it can to justify itself getting so much money. The problem is when people with access to that information try to use it for their own personal gain, or when they use this information against anyone who speaks out against the NSA's ridiculous budget because they think that anyone who speaks out against the NSA obviously is a threat to National Security.

Both those things might have happened already.

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