Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

theglobeandmail.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 715 posts

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#271

Post by s2g »

trhway wrote: post #236
tanilama wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley, most likely you are not going to afford a house anyway.. .

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

Yeah, the argument is a bit ridiculous.

You shouldn't go to the bay area because you will never be able to afford a 2 million dollar house on 300k a year.

Stay in Vancouver and just buy a 1 million dollar house on 90k instead.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#272

Post by jgh »

privacypoller wrote: post #93
andechs wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TN - (nonimmigrant NAFTA Professional) visa makes it very easy to move to the US as a Canadian vs a foreigner from any other country.

*For now - as you say, that's a NAFTA visa and some professions are already having issues crossing the border (nurses and medical professionals lately). It's very unclear what will happen if talks don't lead to another deal, and I don't think most small start-ups could handle the fallout if they all of the sudden need to convert their Canadian staff to another entry mechanism.

Not sure why you got downvoted there, you raise a good point about TN and NAFTA (though your assertion about nurses having issues at the border cries for a citation). I don't think you're wrong that people should be concerned about the current NAFTA negotiations, especially if they are Canadian (or Mexican) on TN or employ any Canadians or Mexicans on TN.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#273

Post by pm90 »

s2g wrote: post #258
badpun wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the tech industry is about burning through investors' money in search of new profitable ideas. I'm guessing there's much less investor money in Canada.

Lots less, but the big problem is a lack of competition. We don't have the big companies sucking up devs at an insane rate, or startups doing the same. So they just pay what it takes to fill the spot. Of course they are also incredibly resistant to changing this, preferring to complain about how we need to fix brain drain and/or make immigration easier.

> Lots less, but the big problem is a lack of competition. We don't have the big companies sucking up devs at an insane rate, or startups doing the same.

So it seems like they're not losing devs at a fast enough pace to warrant increasing dev salaries? Or perhaps there are just enough developers for the Canadian market, to not have to increase compensation to attract better talent?

From what I've seen, American based companies with offices in Canada do seem to pay very well, but Canadian companies are unabashedly poorly compensating. I talked with a few hiring managers at some Canadian startups and what they were offering would be less than what I made right out of college. It left me wondering how talented folks can continue to work for Canadian firms?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#274

Post by woolvalley »

jorblumesea wrote: post #59
guiolo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Canadian tech companies love to complain about lack of talent, but they're not willing to pay for it [...] They most likely to a large extent can't. It's just a different model both as comapnies and country. In general you can rarely win by being a lesser version of something else. Canada can, hopefully, do a lot of things the US can't. Those are the things it should do to attract people.

Canada's main attraction is the social services and basicaly guaranteed citizenship. The US's main attraction is money and technical opportunities and also some vague promise of a green card.

If you were not born in China or India, then getting a green card isn't a vague promise. Go work at google, try to get an H1B or L1 ASAP and then get your green card in 1-2 years after that.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#275

Post by Jare »

ng12 wrote: post #233
Jare wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an European that has immigrated to both countries at different points, and my experience couldn't be farther from what you describe. And my stint in the USA was 20 years ago, which was the wild west compared to today. What do you mean by stricter here?

If it was easy for you it's because you're economically desirable and culturally compatible. Canada only accepts immigrants who have a high probability of financial success and "integration", along with a limited number of refugees who have sponsors. The USA on the other hand has a relatively open employer-backed system in addition to the wealth/education-agnostic quota system.

I don't know, one of my euro immigrant friends in Vancouver was a window cleaner. IIRC she basically showed up at the border with some education certificate (some non-fancy arts degree), her intent to make a living and proof she could sustain herself for a few months; definitely not sponsored by a tech company or anything like that. A few years later she was a citizen. OTOH I know two very capable (although not "rockstar" level) tech people who have lost the H1B lottery several years in a row.

In that sense the USA seems more random, but not more open. But I guess we're just using different criteria.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#276

Post by firstplacelast »

padobson wrote: post #192
r-s wrote: post #166

Canadian tech worker here. Base salary is 120k CAD in Calgary which is far above market rate but I am educated, experienced etc. That is 93k USD. I am looking to move to the USA because of higher salaries, but I am not 22 years old anymore and moving a family (with 2 earners) is no easy task. It falls on deaf ears though, 120k CAD is a good income, I can afford a house, cars, no debts etc so there is very little unde…

Do Canadian companies make that much less money than American ones? Why should they get to pad their profit margins because 120k CAD is "good income"?

Engineer/technical/science-type people tend to have this belief that wanting to reap the value they create makes them "bad people" or at the very least not a "good engineer/scientist/etc."

Apparently, only business and finance people are allowed to want money because they provide a useful service or just because they want money.

I personally believe that in a capitalistic society, it is imperative that everyone tries their best to extract as much of the value that they create. Otherwise we end up with massive inequality.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#277

Post by woolvalley »

hluska wrote: post #204
privacypoller wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of living between Vancouver and Seattle is very comparable, especially when you account for your biggest input costs, housing, food & transportation. The Salaries most definitely are not. The biggies south of the border set the baseline salary for everyone; when they move north they match the existing, much lower rates. If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vanco…

I can't believe how much Vancouver has changed (as far as attractiveness for recent grads) over the last twenty years. When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to b…

Having lived in both, the cities are pretty much identical in practice in your day to day life, not counting the costs and the income.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#278

Post by Kluny »

daxorid wrote: post #212
dang wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people on this forum snicker at me I hope you just mean that metaphorically, but if it's actually happening, please let us know so we can scold them. Putting others down that pettily is a breach of civility. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I've seen what the OP describes on HN many times in discussions of engineer salaries. It's usually not really a personal snickering as much as a stern warning that the person is "being taken advantage of" and they should leave immediately. I see it all the time, but don't have any examples specifically bookmarked.

Exactly that, yeah.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#279

Post by Kluny »

privacypoller wrote: post #98
Kluny wrote: post #56

Canadian here. I get $65,000 USD from my remote American job. That's low enough that people on this forum snicker at me, and high enough that companies in the "tech town" that I live in physically wince when I tell them my salary expectation. I'd rather work locally, but what can I do?

And you're in Victoria? that's not a cheap place to live, especially if you're considering buying a home. That companies think you're paid highly for your area is kind of this entire problem in a nutshell.

Exactly. I'm making more than my father did when he retired, yet I'll be stretched to afford the cheapest one-bedroom condo. Renting is cheaper, but there are no rentals available.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#280

Post by sidlls »

trhway wrote: post #236
tanilama wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley, most likely you are not going to afford a house anyway.. .

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

The vast majority of engineers in the valley do not get FANG levels of compensation. Non-engineers earn even less. FANG employs a small fraction of all engineers, also. Using their salary as a baseline to analyze affordability introduces a strong bias towards one extreme of the tail. If one wishes to analyze affordability in general starting that bias makes the analysis not fit for purpose.
Post reply on HN