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Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

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Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#181

Post by josephjrobison »

ng12 wrote: post #160
whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

> who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA. EDIT: Specifically what I'm talking about is that Canada only allows in immigrants who are economically desirable and speak English or French.

Kinda unrelated to immigration, but I've heard Canadian border patrol is actually more harsh than American border control. Anyone with experience that can verify?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#182

Post by wjn0 »

soperj wrote: post #153
chrischen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be hard to get startups to be based in a Canada if their target market is the US. We’re talking a difference of 36 million people vs 300 million. When it comes down to it Canada looks big but is a really tiny country.

35 million but whatever. (edit: this was in response to it having 25 million people, not 36 million) It's kind of like saying that California is a really tiny state.

That's a weird comparison, I guess you say that because California's population (39 million) is close to that of Canada's (36.3 million)? No doubt California is diverse, and by no means homogenous, but Canada... is physically huge, and relatively speaking, very sparsely populated. This naturally leads to more diversity within an already "small" population. To develop a business with a target market of "all of California" would be much easier than to develop one with a target market of "all of Canada."

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#183

Post by _xzxj »

digianarchist wrote: post #165
ryanobjc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might ro…

>"The reality is Canada is deeply conservative." Agreed. Ontario is a few weeks away from voting in a conservative government with Doug Ford at the helm.

I think the conservativeness of Canada is a bit different from conservatives in the USA though. It's less focused on "morality" and religion and more an aversion to change. Which is why I think it's possible for the culture to be simultaneously conservative and OK with things like gay marriage and legal cannabis, neither of which would be conservative positions in the US.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#184

Post by fudged71 »

cfcf14 wrote: post #32

Canadian living in London for about 4 years now - of course people are leaving. The pay is incredibly low in major Canadian cities like Vancouver & Toronto; I was looking at 50-60k/yr there, ~150k in the US, or about 60-70k GPB in London. Now, London isn't exactly cheap, and my overall buying power here is probably only mildly superior to what it would be in Canada, but I get to live in a great city with all the amen…

I moved from Canada to London for a few months and I did appreciate the tech culture compared to silicon valley because it's not the #1 industry so you get a lot of balance. However the drinking culture is absurd and unhealthy overall.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#185

Post by sidlls »

digianarchist wrote: post #157
sidlls wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are rents like in Toronto? Are they $700 - $1300 per month lower (the difference of $20k - $40k net of taxes is about that)? If not, it doesn't make sense to work in Toronto. The same situation exists across the US. For example I can get a mortgage on a nice place in the Midwest that is half my current rent in SV. That amounts to about $24k/year. However I'd have take a pay cut of about $40k gross (or more) for…

I pay $1750 CAD for a 1 bed + den near to the subway line. It's around 700 sqft.

Here's a CL search just to show you what you could get on the Peninsula. It's not the city, but it's close enough. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/pen/apa?sort=priceasc&nh...

The "near downtown San Mateo" listing is a 5-minute bike ride from Caltrain, 600sq ft and US$1785. So about CAD$600 more than your rent.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#186

Post by merinowool »

dblohm7 wrote: post #128
merinowool wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped, so I could afford better services privately.

It's great, but there can be long wait lists for specialists, even for urgent things.

Here the problem is that specialists aren't that great, and combined with long wait time that leads you nowhere you potentially put your life at risk. Complaint procedures are as bureaucratic as possible so you get no redress.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#187

Post by ryanobjc »

turingcompeteme wrote: post #63

Me and most of my engineering friends faced this decision 5 years ago. We all had to decide between offers from one of the big 5, or remaining in the Toronto-Waterloo region. I'm the only one who stayed. And that's only because I was presented with a really interesting opportunity not available to most. I can only speak to the University of Waterloo, but there was this idea that the only goal worth perusing was a cal…

It's not so much that people are paid better in the bay area, but the jobs are plentiful, more interesting, more opportunities. Endless opportunities in fact.

Bay area best case scenario is top of the world. Founder of a world-wide renowned company.

Best case scenario for being in waterloo: Founder of a huge telcom handset manufacturer until shifting markets cause massive failure written about in economics textbooks as "what not to do"

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#188

Post by Jare »

ng12 wrote: post #160
whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

> who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA. EDIT: Specifically what I'm talking about is that Canada only allows in immigrants who are economically desirable and speak English or French.

I am an European that has immigrated to both countries at different points, and my experience couldn't be farther from what you describe. And my stint in the USA was 20 years ago, which was the wild west compared to today. What do you mean by stricter here?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#189

Post by cmrdporcupine »

digianarchist wrote: post #154
mabbo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

Engineer with 5 years experience earning $117k CAD ($91k USD) in North York. I don't see a lot of jobs under $85k CAD in Toronto.

From what I've seen... If you consider stock options and bonuses, you could be making at least double that in the valley.

Canadians getting a raw deal by comparison. Cost of living in Toronto is not half of that of the Bay Area. Most like 2/3rds.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#190

Post by fudged71 »

jasondc wrote: post #70

Maybe it's not only the money. In Silicon Valley, engineers are treated like stars, not sent to the basement with the worst office. In most cities, the business leaders run the show, and treat engineers as a commodity, to be added or disposed of when needed: "let's go faster by adding more engineers, who cares about the talent level, what's the difference".

Sadly software is still treated as a cost center for a lot of companies. It's depressing how many forms you fill out having to say you're in "I.T."
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