The rise of the pointless job • Hacker News Board

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#181

Post by digi_owl » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #174

digi_owl wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_General_Theory_of_Employme... "If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coal mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it private enterprise on well tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-beari…

aaand the very next sentence... "It would indeed be better to build houses and the like " It also follows on from a criticism of the economic utility of digging up gold and then burying it in the ground, which is an economic analog of digging holes and filling them in. It won't be the first or the last time that quote gets taken out of context. Rich, white men with gold in the ground prefer your misinterpretation.

I just copied wholesale what the wiki had. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#182

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #111

mfoy_ wrote: post #27

Keynes was a little more direct: "The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up."

It is much more intellectually challenging to address the inefficiencies in the economic system by devising a global model with regard to the available resources, manpower and population needs. Call it a planned economy if you will. People should vote what the system must produce, while considering the pollution and exhaustion of finite resources. The current capitalist system is all about the individual self interes…

We are in a planned economy. Just not directly government planned. There are very few industries in the US that consist of free economic agents.

I’d hazard to guess that most postwar US economic activity was indirectly fueled by government policy, and it has shifted in some ways to large cartels.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#183

Post by pesmhey » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

api wrote: post #126

lainga wrote: post #15

I have said this before, but I see some parallels between the modern world and Japan during the early Tokugawa era. Japan had pretty much reached a steady state by the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu came to power in 1600; most of the available land had been cultivated or settled, and, especially after the policies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, society was locked in a rigid structure without much room for advancement or unrest. As a…

That's really interesting. I've drawn another more superficial Japan comparison: Japanese economic stagnation since the 1980s. I've been predicting for a while that we are headed for "planet Japan": perpetually low interest rates and not much actual growth. What ended the era you describe? Contact with the outside world? I've also thought for a long time that space migration is the only real hope for the human race t…

The Meiji Restoration. It was somewhat of a result of the Japanese being contacted by the outside world and realizing that they were behind.

Also the "floating world" period up to that point, so it seems like life was at least decent for people before the outside influence.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#184

Post by newnewpdro » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

It's called an "occupation" for a reason. There's no requirement of merit or value to qualify as one, just occupy the people.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#185

Post by ItsMe000001 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #179

iriNjfk993 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frustrating thing is though: we have plenty of real demand Social work, infrastructure repairs, mental health services. But all the effort coalesces around BIG Corp. and Douche Co. needs first Somehow we’re convinced that Bezos and Koch’s are more important than our neighbors Some looney economists will tell you it’s proven in physics these people are just better Ignoring the history of violent imperialism and co…

Except I like what Bezos does for me. He gets my capital because I get something in return. I'd much rather my money go to one of Bezos services than it be taken from me by the government to pay someone to fill holes. And filling holes doesn't create jobs, it sucks capital from places that do. Bezos on the other hand created whole new industries.

> it sucks capital from places that do

We have more than enough "capital". There is no shortage of (completely made up virtual) "money". There always is plenty of money for any worthwhile project - because it is created new for that new project. And if the economy is in trouble because "money!" the government steps in and through intermediaries creates a few trillion, see last crisis. So, please clarify for me, how does anything "suck away" capital from useful endeavors? According all that I read the last decade "money" is scrambling to find even half-decent places to invest itself.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#186

Post by TaylorAlexander » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #135

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk to people about changing the world so work is optional, and people are really attached to the idea that everyone should work all the time. Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work. Or more conservatively, we could build a world where everyone has 8 weeks of vacation a year or could take 6 months off…

> Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work. i realize that the rest of your post details technological advancements that could create this condition (on an indefinite timeline), but you also seem to be saying that it is already possible today. i often see this sort of claim these days, and i always wonder…

I imagine it would start in the wealthier countries. US GDP per capita is $57.5k. I think if we had previously been focused on building a non-consumerist society, we could already have what I talk about today. That is, the problem is not technological but political and cultural. These efforts have not in my opinion really begun in earnest, but my hope is that robotics can be leveraged to rapidly replace the old human centric infrastructure with an automated one. Then it all just comes down to who owns the machines.

I recognize that in many places in the world, the development isn’t there. However the US can also play a part by ending the imperialism that helps keep these countries down.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#187

Post by wizardforhire » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

mfoy_ wrote: post #27

Keynes was a little more direct: "The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up."

We’d be better off if these same people ran hand operated gas distillers and then buried co2.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#188

Post by dsego » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #75

crdoconnor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynes said that the government paying people to dig holes and fill them up was sufficient to escape a liquidity trap. He didn't actually advocate nonproductive work.

There's tons of actual productive work that could be done though. Cleaning trash from streets and parks, filling potholes, fixing sidewalks, pulling weeds, painting over graffiti. These things would would make everyone's days a little nicer.

This exists, it's called public works programmes.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#189

Post by jstanley » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

bamboozled wrote: post #162

foamflower wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my family lived in Japan years ago, we noticed that when taking the train, approximately three attendants checked our tickets before we boarded a train. At least two of those jobs are "bullshit" in terms of producing wealth, but they are socially beneficial in a culture where the social contract requires near-zero unemployment. (I, apparently like you, can't help but remember this kind of arrangement when listen…

Never noticed this, visited Japan a few times myself. Often I had mine checked at the gate and on the train. Are you sure you’re not just exaggerating?

I visited Japan recently and although I think the tickets were only actually checked by one person, there did seem to be an awful lot of superfluous staff associated with any sort of transport.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#190

Post by jnordwick » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #72

I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of economics and capitalism, and deserves to be called out. Remember that David Graeber is an anthropologist, not an economist. Pointless jobs exist because of inefficiences. Someone higher up couldn't be bothered to automate it, and there isn't enough oversight of the budget. An entrenched interest (like a no-longer-needed union regulation) is too ha…

You are not allowed to speak positively of capitalism here. It is a messy system, far inferior to the more modern technocratic ways we should be following.