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Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

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Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#101

Post by philwelch »

logicalmind wrote: post #91
jrockway wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your footnote. It's very easy for drivers to slow down and share the road, but they don't want to. They are Very Important and are late to their next appointment. (Of course, so am I, and I have to pedal there! They should be making way for me!) I ride my bike to work (almost) every day and do about 100 miles of road riding a week in addition to that. Rarely do I have problems on the streets of Chicago,…

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads. If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist sho…

Which is why I said "If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem." There might be a few bike paths around for recreational use, but you're hard pressed to find adequate bike infrastructure in any American city. (More on this issue can be read here: http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/series/bicycle-neglec...)

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#102

Post by logicalmind »

philwelch wrote: post #101
logicalmind wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads. If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist sho…

Which is why I said "If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem." There might be a few bike paths around for recreational use, but you're hard pressed to find adequate bike infrastructure in any American city. (More on this issue can be read here: http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/series/bicycle-neglec... )

I completely agree with you (which was why I didn't respond to what you said). Doing something like adding a extra bike lane next to the car lanes and things like that. I would love to see something like that and it would probably make me want to bike to places more frequently as well. It would be safer for everyone.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#103

Post by calloc »

lhorie wrote: post #89
ewjordan wrote: post #41

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

What's really interesting is that we are all here rationalizing whether to throw the doctor or the baby, when the hardest but perfectly politically correct choice is to throw yourself to the sharks.

Self preservation still plays a role. Unfortunately we as humans are wired by nature to always have a me before anyone else unless it is our offspring in which case that role is reversed.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#104

Post by philwelch »

logicalmind wrote: post #100
jrockway wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The infrastructure is outdated. It was designed for a world when pollution didn't matter, distances to be traveled were long, and oil was free. Now times have changed. Most trips are under 2 miles. Oil is pricey. We're killing the planet by pumping toxic fumes into the atmosphere. It just isn't sustainable, but sustainable infrastructure costs too much money. So it's time to get rid of the cars, and let bikes fill th…

Clearly you're an idealist. I don't mean that as an insult. The problems you've brought up can be solved by other means while retaining the existing infrastructure. For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based. You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce. I would think those things are more likely in the US than making everyone ride a bike. Your vision of the future basically ki…

For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based.

Not really a solution. The problem is the sheer energy required to move a 1-2 ton steel cage, not the specific source of that energy, though petroleum is an especially bad one.

"You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce."

While that would help, it would also be useful if you could, for instance, buy groceries or really just leave the house without having to bring the steel cage with you.

"I would think those things are more likely in the US than making everyone ride a bike."

The current infrastructure policy in the US can be described as "making everyone drive a car", even if they live in cities which are easily large enough to make other solutions more practical. I don't want to make anyone ride a bike--but I sure want to allow people to safely ride bikes if they so choose, maybe even encourage it.

The suburbs were created 50-60 years ago in the era of cheap petroleum and post-war infrastructure development. They aren't anything important to be preserved or saved--for various reasons it would be more accurate to view them as a failed social experiment.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#105

Post by logicalmind »

philwelch wrote: post #104
logicalmind wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you're an idealist. I don't mean that as an insult. The problems you've brought up can be solved by other means while retaining the existing infrastructure. For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based. You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce. I would think those things are more likely in the US than making everyone ride a bike. Your vision of the future basically ki…

For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based. Not really a solution. The problem is the sheer energy required to move a 1-2 ton steel cage, not the specific source of that energy, though petroleum is an especially bad one. "You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce." While that would help, it would also be useful if you could, for instance, buy groceries or really just leave t…

Hopefully, when we do move away from the internal combustion engine we will move to something lighter. Currently the batteries are the source of massive weight for electric cars but we're all hoping that improves. We will (hopefully) have cars that are much lighter, more efficient, and based on some energy source than oil derivatives.

It just seems that that path is more likely than everyone in the suburbs giving up their homes and communities and moving within biking distance of home and work. I support initiatives that allow people to safely ride bikes. What I don't particularly like is expecting multi-ton vehicles driving at high speeds to negotiate 1/10th ton people going much slower speeds. There has to be a better/safer solution.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#106

Post by Tyr42 »

iuyhgtfvgbhjn wrote: post #21
Tyr42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember watching a documentary where they found that drivers are much more likely to cut off cyclists wearing helmets than those without helmets. They also measured things like average distance between car and bike when passing. If people see you not wearing a helmet they assume that you are unsafe and will stay further away from you.

The research was conducted by a prof at my old school. He also discovered that drivers gave a female cyclist much more space - although since he did the experiment himself in a blonde wig he did consider that perhaps they just give unconvincing transvestites more room !

Yes, that is the one I was talking about! Thank you. I'm glad somebody knows what I'm talking about.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#108

Post by lookACamel »

calloc wrote: post #51
ewjordan wrote: post #41

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

Since you are asking for people to stand up, yes I will toss the baby overboard. I have no qualms about it in any way shape or form. The baby has no value, it won't be able to help with our decision making process to get back to shore, it won't be able to solve problems we may find along the way, if we get stranded somewhere it won't be able to build shelter or find food. At that point the baby is nothing but dead we…

You could always sacrifice yourself (you have to be in the boat to throw someone overboard). So baby vs doctor is actually a false dilemma.

Also, I'd like to point out that if you make your opinion known that you plan to throw the baby overboard, everyone else is probably going to want to throw you overboard anyway.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#109

Post by statictype »

jrockway wrote: post #83
logicalmind wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, I was a successful bmx racer for a number of years so I used to be a hardcore bicyclist, but I really have a problem with bicyclists riding on roads on which they have no ability to maintain the posted speed limit. I experience this nearly every day on a road I drive to/from work. This is a four-lane highway with a posted speed limit of 45mph. It is a favorite of bicyclists for some reason so there are a…

I agree 100%. 45mph is way too fast; the speed limit should be a more reasonable 15mph, and then everyone is on equal footing. (There are a lot less serious injuries when cars collide at 15mph as opposed to 45mph. So even the car drivers are safer!) If you want to get to work fast, take the train.

I think the speed limit should be 45. If you want to go to work safely, take a train. Just saying.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#110

Post by jrockway »

logicalmind wrote: post #102
philwelch wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I said "If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem." There might be a few bike paths around for recreational use, but you're hard pressed to find adequate bike infrastructure in any American city. (More on this issue can be read here: http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/series/bicycle-neglec... )

I completely agree with you (which was why I didn't respond to what you said). Doing something like adding a extra bike lane next to the car lanes and things like that. I would love to see something like that and it would probably make me want to bike to places more frequently as well. It would be safer for everyone.

How would it be safer for everyone? Most cyclists die because they are going straight through an intersection where a car is turning right. Move the bikes farther to the right, and it's even more likely that they'll be turned into.

Very few people die because they get hit from behind, despite that seeming like the most likely way to get hit. Drivers use the "see and avoid" principle -- if they see you, then it's likely they'll avoid you. If they can't see you (because you're way off to the side of the road), then they have no opportunity to avoid you.

When you "take the lane" as a cyclist and drive your bicycle with traffic, it's very hard to not see you. People will get annoyed, honk, and call you a bastard, but you'll get to your destination safely. And for me, being able to safely go anywhere I want on 20 pounds of steel is much more important than letting a few cars get to the next red light a few seconds faster.

Anyway, we don't need any new infrastructure for cyclists. We need automobile drivers to have a better attitude, and learn to share their resources.

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