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Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

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Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem. As it stands you're just asking people to give up a healthier and cheaper means of transportation with fewer negative externalities for little more than the convenience of motorists[1]. That's bad public policy. [1] I don't buy the safety argument one bit--cars put cyclists in danger far more than cyclists put cars in danger.

I agree with your footnote. It's very easy for drivers to slow down and share the road, but they don't want to. They are Very Important and are late to their next appointment. (Of course, so am I, and I have to pedal there! They should be making way for me!) I ride my bike to work (almost) every day and do about 100 miles of road riding a week in addition to that. Rarely do I have problems on the streets of Chicago,…

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads.

If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist should be able to safely travel with other automobiles. If they cannot do so, they should not travel on those roads. The same rational as to why you don't see bicyclists on highways.

I see your request as me deciding that I want to drive my car down the train tracks and then asking trains to work around what the limitations of my car are on the tracks.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#92
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sentience is certainly a difference between trees and humans, and probably a crucial difference. However, some studies show that, depending on your definition of sentience, a baby might not fit into the category. There are many things (from memory: seeing moral consequences; some kinds of what if processes; understanding analogies) that aren't available to a person until 5-6 years old. Even trivial concepts such as t…

The issue is of sentience in humans and non-sentience in trees -- not of developed sentience in adults and yet-to-be-developed sentience in babies.

I wouldn't argue that if I were you. Who says trees aren't sentient? They may be made of fibers of cellulose, but plants and trees both respond to stimulus. Perhaps they think "slower" and of a different way.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#93

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

There are multiple things wrong with this, although I know you weren't aiming to exhaustive completeness. So my critique is directed at the philosophical argument, not you personally.

1. The tree issue is a false choice. Maybe I can just dig a hole and transplant the smaller one; perhaps I can modify my needs.

2a. From a callously practical point of view, the 50 year old doctor-professor will make a much larger and more satisfying meal for the hungry shark than the baby, which won't be much more than an appetizer.

Of course, we have to ask why we're putting the interest of humanity in general on such a pedestal, considering that society has yet to dispatch a rescue craft. Maybe we should keep the doctor around to treat the victims of future shark attacks or dehydration; in this sense 'society' looms only as large as our future life expectancy after the shark has gone. Then again, the doctor is heavier than the baby, and will consume a greater amount of food...

2b. Everyone else in this boat must be a Nobel prize winner or something if the successful medical researcher is the most disposable person after the baby. It's another false choice, in that it bolsters the hearer's ego while simultaneously limiting their choices - this exercise doesn't cater for the suggestion that one might sacrifice themselves to save both doctor and baby, for example - although the sad fact is that few people would, so in that sense it's accurately predicated on humans' general selfishness.

However, as a false choice it's dangerously seductive, and politicians work this one (or an inverted version) all the time: "We can't increase the debt (lifeboat)! Should we give a tax cut to the rich so they can create jobs (proven success) or waste it on giving welfare to bums (unknown outcome)?" or alternatively "My opponent is soft on crime. Are we going to get tough on criminals (proven bad) now or wait for some other innocent to die (unknown probability)?" You can construct endless variations on this, regardless of your political leanings: just stick with the formula of "Time is running out - do you want distasteful alternative A or repulsive alternative B?" and just tailor your argument to the known biases of whatever group you are addressing.

Underlying this argument is the implicit threat that if you don't make a choice, you'll be chosen instead. Republicans hint that not voting for the wealthy folks' interests could cause them to cut your job, Democrats murmur that the rich might find themselves sinners in the hands of an angry mob. Broad arguments that suggest joint stakes and responsibility (eg raise some taxes and cut some spending) tend to upset everyone, which is why they're only ever offered by politicians who are leaving office anyway.

2c. Value of the baby is unpredictable. Certainly if you take 100 babies and measure something (anything) about them now or in the future, you'll get a nice Gaussian distribution. But an individual baby's future is no more predictable than an individual roll of a dice. You are not any more likely to throw a 3 or a 4 than a 1 or a 6 or a 2 or a 5, even though the average of 100 throws will converge on a value of 3.5. Evaluating the probability in light of the doctor being a '6' is seductive, but only as long as you keep sidestepping the question of who else is in this boat that makes the doctor seem 2nd-most disposable. If the baby is the child of two world-class geniuses (neither of whom we would throw out before the doctor), then the probability of its future utility is high.

We could also wonder about what the average person will be capable of in 50 years' time thanks to technology, vs. the skilled person of today. Their relative utility to society then may be lower than that of the doctor to society today, but it might be larger in absolute terms. I am particularly wary of assuming the doctor's future utility over 25 years of natural life will exceed that of the average person's 50 years.

But the unpredictability of the individual is the more important factor. Suppose there are 100 lifeboats, none of which know about the others. If all 100 follow your advice and toss the babies, those with excellent future potential will be lost as surely as those of average or lesser potential.

2d. But the big issue here is the moral question, and here we have more rational responses than 'it's a baby, it feels so wrong!' Factors of weight, food consumption, shark appetite and life outcome probabilities aside, the basic argument against such a course is the defenseless nature of the baby; s/he cannot volunteer, acquiesce or even resist being thrown to the hungry shark the way the 50 year old doctor can, and this gives us an excellent reason to refuse the idea.

Is it because of a moral obligation towards defenseless beings? Sort of, but it's not rooted in any abstract philosophy. It's rooted in our self-interest: if we are in favor of sacrificing the defenseless, then then we are advertising our utility calculus to others in the boat. True, we are not sacrificing the baby because of its defenselessness, but we are not letting the fact mitigate against the utility function either. In a future round, we might throw out someone who's asleep because their wakeful utility is similarly imponderable; that increases the danger for all, since all need to sleep; nor can we exclude ourselves, since we began with the position that circumstances brook no delay.

Even if none of us sleep, or more sharks will arrive before we can, revealing our utility calculus allows everyone else to model it for themselves in relation to everyone else. Anyone expecting to be on the wrong end of a future comparison - the doctor/professor, for example - has an enormous incentive to throw us overboard first. Such a person can make a rather compelling argument that 'after me, you're next' to everyone whose assessed utility would be lower than our own; only those for whose survival we are willing to sacrifice ourselves have an incentive to let us remain. We have already demonstrated that we consider ourselves to be at least two steps away from being expendable simply by proposing the baby go overboard; on a practical level we might expect the mother to vote the interests of her baby, and so be similarly expendable to the extent that we consider her objections to increase the risk for the whole group.

On the other hand, if we argue for the survival of the baby, we are advertising our unwillingness to make decisions about unknowables and to defend the vulnerable, an attractive quality to everyone on the boat who is not fully assured of their own survival and social utility. Given the prevalence and success fo tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games, it's probably in our interest to identify ourselves as cooperators rather than defectors. I say probably since there's always the possibility of being on a boat full of defectors...in which case it might be better to take one's chances with the shark, who is at least honest about his intentions.

If this seems a rather involved reply, it's because I've thought about this in more than purely hypothetical terms. A day after her birth, my wife was taken aboard a ship which was part of a refugee convoy of 8 vessels. There was a storm on the second or third night of the journey, and 6 of the boats sank, with no survivors. Besides the horrifying experience my in-laws endured, I'd say she outscores me on a social utility scale too.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#94
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...clearly, a utilitarian argument.

don't you love it when the rules are so simple?

Which brings up another issue with the study. If you use the "rational actors" canard of Econ101. Everyone asked is trying to maximize their economic utility.

So the opportunity cost of inaction beats action. The study should at least require some form of action of roughly equal cost(liabilities and pyhsical action) to occur in order to zero out this input.

I'd also like to rebuff the "action == moral code" statement. There is nothing more common than action that flies in the face of your moral code. Thus the "let he who is without sin" truism.

Effecting a utilitarian outcome despite your moral code does not make it moral in the eyes of the person acting, and it can denote either courage or cowardice.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#95

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

Forcing anyone out of the lifeboat is murder, period. If someone chooses to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the others, good for them. The baby cannot make the choice for itself.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your footnote. It's very easy for drivers to slow down and share the road, but they don't want to. They are Very Important and are late to their next appointment. (Of course, so am I, and I have to pedal there! They should be making way for me!) I ride my bike to work (almost) every day and do about 100 miles of road riding a week in addition to that. Rarely do I have problems on the streets of Chicago,…

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads. If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist sho…

The infrastructure is outdated. It was designed for a world when pollution didn't matter, distances to be traveled were long, and oil was free. Now times have changed. Most trips are under 2 miles. Oil is pricey. We're killing the planet by pumping toxic fumes into the atmosphere.

It just isn't sustainable, but sustainable infrastructure costs too much money. So it's time to get rid of the cars, and let bikes fill the gap while we wait for proper mass transit to become affordable.

It's already happened everywhere except the US.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#97

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

If I were to be honest? I'd say the baby. No doubt about it. I'm pro abortion (and yes, this should make a difference in one's decision, after all it's only a few extra months), and I know that more then one primitive society considered infanticide a birth control method. None enjoyed it, but its use was pretty difficult to argue. So I am psychologically equipped to make this choice.

This being said, I would _never_ realistically propose this. The risk of being lynched, or at least severely handicapped socially in a critical situation are not negligible. After all, who would you rather throw, a 50 year old doctor, or a guy who just proposed throwing a baby?

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#98

Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause: You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small. You're not the one tha…

The Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens is very interesting; it describes an actual case where one of the people in a lifeboat was killed and eaten by the others, who would have otherwise all died. They claimed it was a "custom of the sea" that you could draw lots and kill one victim in such circumstances, but the court decided in a highly controversial case that necessity is no defence against a charge of murder.

An amusing article about the trolley problem is "Brain Teaser" (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/harper%27s.htm) which satirizes these ethics problems by adding an absurd number of conditions such as a busload of orphans, transplant patients about to die, a brain in a vat, and the inventor of the pop-top can.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#99
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is of sentience in humans and non-sentience in trees -- not of developed sentience in adults and yet-to-be-developed sentience in babies.

I wouldn't argue that if I were you. Who says trees aren't sentient? They may be made of fibers of cellulose, but plants and trees both respond to stimulus. Perhaps they think "slower" and of a different way.

The general consensus is that trees aren't sentient. They may very well be - but that's beyond the scope of this particular argument.

The original assertion is that people are being logically inconsistent by wanting to sacrifice the young tree, yet reluctant to sacrifice the young child. Based on the premise of tree non-sentience, it is entirely logically consistent that the two cases be decided differently.

The problem with tree sentience in general is that we have yet to define "think" in the context you are using it.

Re: Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do.

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads. If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist sho…

The infrastructure is outdated. It was designed for a world when pollution didn't matter, distances to be traveled were long, and oil was free. Now times have changed. Most trips are under 2 miles. Oil is pricey. We're killing the planet by pumping toxic fumes into the atmosphere. It just isn't sustainable, but sustainable infrastructure costs too much money. So it's time to get rid of the cars, and let bikes fill th…

Clearly you're an idealist. I don't mean that as an insult. The problems you've brought up can be solved by other means while retaining the existing infrastructure. For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based. You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce. I would think those things are more likely in the US than making everyone ride a bike.

Your vision of the future basically kills every suburb and urban area and would reduce humans to extremely high population densities in highly concentrated areas. Leading to problems of it's own. But we're really off-topic at this point.

Interestingly enough, you said above you are in chicago. The area I am talking about above is in the western suburbs of chicago.

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