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Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

economist.com

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Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#341

Post by Shivetya »

Pharylon wrote: post #73
austincheney wrote: post #51

When the issue of universal health care comes up with regards to US policy I often see those emotional arguments pulling on the heart strings. Unfortunately, this is a distraction. I know this sounds cold, but it comes down to money. Healthcare in America is expensive. The problems appear to be commonly identified by various forms of research and including things like pricing inefficiencies of drugs, malpractice insu…

I don't think emotional arguments are a distraction, they're the whole point. This is a moral issue. Other countries manage to have universal healthcare and it doesn't break the bank. In fact, they spend less per person. The fiscal argument is the distraction.

However there is a trust issue here, how can Americans truly trust their government to implement it right when the same government cannot get the VA right and worse there seems to be active opposition within the VA and government to right it?

Throw in the BIS run systems which make the VA look good and its a very hard sale.

A lot of the cost of medical care is because there are too many limits on competition for both services and insurance. It certainly needs reform but to get the trust of the people it must prove it can run what it has

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#342

Post by oldcynic »

judah wrote: post #192
oldcynic wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government has final say over healthcare decisions No, the medical professionals, i.e. doctors do. "the unanimous opinion of the doctors who have examined him and the scans of his brain is that almost all of his brain has been destroyed". What happens in a non state run healthcare system when a parent refuses to accept someone's death in the ICU?

>> No, the medical professionals, i.e. doctors do. The UK doctors punted, agreed. But Italian doctors believed different treatments were warranted. The Italian government gave the boy citizenship. In a private healthcare system, the parents would be free to pursue that. But in the state-run system of the UK, there was no such freedom. Alfie Evans died last Monday.

> But Italian doctors believed different treatments were warranted

Again no.

"The Italian hospital had acknowledged it could not find a cure, but had proposed maintaining Alfie’s life for about two weeks while doctors tried to investigate his condition."

There are no treatments - even that seems to be agreed.

> In a private healthcare system, the parents would be free to pursue that

If they could afford to write a blank cheque for open ended life support. Any insurance would defer to the consensus of medical opinion and cease treatment. They would have ceased cover long before the 2 year trail of court cases and appeals all the way up to rejection from the European Court of Human Rights (not part of the EU or UK govt).

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#343

Post by chimeracoder »

Pharylon wrote: post #46
merpnderp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the private healthcare system is immoral, you should take a look at the 100% government ran healthcare system that is the VA. You literally couldn't make up worse things than their administration has been caught doing with little or to consequence. If the VA is the best the US government can do, with some of the most sympathetic citizens, then it is incapable of doing better than our private system.

The VA has gotten a lot of bad headlines, but I work with a vet who absolutely loved the VA. He brags about the quality and speed of his healthcare all the time. This is in Charlotte, NC. Different offices might be different.

> He brags about the quality and speed of his healthcare all the time. This is in Charlotte, NC. Different offices might be different.

The VA is run in a federated fashion, so there is a massive variation in how well they operate.

The problem with the VA isn't that literally every hospital is terrible. The problem is that:

(1) a lot are bad

(2) the bad ones are really terrible

(3) the bad ones are consistently bad over time, with no success in improving them

Part (3) is the really damning one, because it's not like there haven't been efforts to fix the issues with the VA. But because the US is such a heterogeneous country, the successes of Portland don't translate well to Memphis.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#344

Post by knieveltech »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #319
knieveltech wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. Sidewalk, in the middle of a restaurant, in your livingroom, at the airport. Pick a location and then feel free to explain what selection criteria make ignoring the injuries of another moral.

Okay. I pick any of the injuries of others that you're ignoring right now.

I am not currently actively or passively ignoring anyone's injuries. I'm a trained first responder, registered organ donor, and actively lobby my local, state, and federal government for universal healthcare and robust international humanitarian aid. It is instructive to note that two attempts to shift goalposts and distract with trivia have been made while nobody seems willing to take a crack at what is a very simple question.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#345

Post by lainga »

guitarbill wrote: post #331
patrickg_zill wrote: post #246

Skeptic's questions: 1. How many are aware that Britain's NHS, if run as well as Spain's healthcare system, would kill 10,000 fewer patients each year due to better treatment? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-world-ranking-... and http://www.cityam.com/270171/nhs-world-class-if-you-ignore-i... (3rd to last paragraph) 2. I can get an MRI in the USA within 3-5 days (sometimes next day), virtually anywhere…

> 2. I can get an MRI in the USA within 3-5 days (sometimes next day), virtually anywhere in the country. Not if you don't have insurance, like a few million Americans. But fuck those guys, right? At least my MRI is fast!

You have a few percent of the overall American population waiting vs. 41% of Ontario.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#346

Post by monocasa »

conanbatt wrote: post #325
monocasa wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Government is just unable to provide something more efficiently than the private market Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that?

I can give you a nobel in economics on it if you wish.

You're just stating very wide sweeping statements as if they are facts.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#347

Post by AstralStorm »

programmarchy wrote: post #22

If you get cancer, would you rather be treated in the US or Europe? Survival rates are significantly higher in the US, so I know what I'd choose. And yeah, I'll pay more, too, because I want high quality doctors.

You won't be able to pay unless you're filthy rich.

A second of care costs something on the order of $40...

Medication costs, simple drug imatinib. $28000/annum vs $1000/annum (USA vs Poland, 2000, PPP adjusted.) Control checks, thousands dollars difference and they're the exact same.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#348

Post by chimeracoder »

Clubber wrote: post #339
chimeracoder wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They supplement it, I don't believe they are leaving it, unless they are wealthy and can afford to pay out of pocket because they want to use a doctor that is not participating in the medicare program. Do you have a cite? No, this is wrong. Private Medicare plans fully replace Original Medicare. If you are on a privately-managed Medicare plan, you receive none of your benefits from Original Medicare (the government…

My mother is supplementing her medicare with insurance. GAP insurance is I think what she calls it. I mean I'm sure what you are describing exists, but it's not universal.

> My mother is supplementing her medicare with insurance. GAP insurance is I think what she calls it. I mean I'm sure what you are describing exists, but it's not universal.

I am talking about Medicare Advantage. Medigap is different.

What I am talking about isn't "universal", but it's what about 40% of Medicare patients use in 2018. It's not universal because people have to choose to opt into Medicare Advantage, but it's an option for everyone: everyone[0] who's eligible for Original Medicare is eligible for Medicare Advantage.

[0] well, there are a couple of small exceptions, but I'm 100% sure your mom doesn't fall into those categories, based on what you've already said

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#349

Post by jkingsbery »

slantedview wrote: post #69
austincheney wrote: post #51

When the issue of universal health care comes up with regards to US policy I often see those emotional arguments pulling on the heart strings. Unfortunately, this is a distraction. I know this sounds cold, but it comes down to money. Healthcare in America is expensive. The problems appear to be commonly identified by various forms of research and including things like pricing inefficiencies of drugs, malpractice insu…

Fun fact that most Americans don't know: We _ALREADY_ spend more than enough on healthcare as a nation to fully fund healthcare for everybody. It's just that, unlike in other countries, our current system routes that spending to various for profit entities that don't involve actually providing care. tldr; Lack of funding is not a legitimate argument against providing healthcare to Americans.

While true, in healthcare, a lot of the incentives that for-profit entities experience are put in place by the government. For example, a lot of the economics around pharma are driven by patent laws.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#350

Post by [deleted] »

judah wrote: post #80
potatopolis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Created my account just to respond to this. Alfie Evans was allowed to die based on unanimous, qualified medical evidence that was placed before the judiciary, which is entirely separate from the government. This ridiculous idea of "the government putting him to death" that's doing the rounds in the US media at the moment is disgustingly disingenuous and, what is worse, factually far from the mark. Alfie's parents, a…

>> every qualified, trained medical professional agreed Except there were offers from international hospitals and doctors who disagreed and wanted to treat him. It's in the article I linked to. And, as you point out, the UK legal system shut that down.

[deleted]
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