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Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

economist.com

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Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#251

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #173
rogerb wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a simple thought experiment that helps: - an american citizen break his leg, he is not insured. Do you A: let him die B: take care of him ? if your answer is A - you are a terrible person, but you hold a consistent position. if your answer is B - the only question that remains is what is the most economic, efficient way to take care of this person ? b is universal health care. if you think you can do A with e…

The most economically efficient way to pay for B is to allow the free market to drive the cost of care so low that the person is either able to pay for it, or the cost through charity is trivial. This has the double benefit of not attempting to rectify one moral wrong (person does not receive care) by committing another (violent coercion by the state).

[deleted]

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#253

Post by mistermann »

rogerb wrote: post #225
SamReidHughes wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but what about people in other countries? Why don't we have an obligation to help them, to?

That's a different question which is outside of the scope of healthcare in the US IMO.

The underlying reasoning for universal healthcare is based on a principle, does this principle end at the US border, which I'm told is just some arbitrary, meaningless line right?

If it's not clear, my tongue is firmly in my cheek as I say that, but where it isn't in my cheek is when I'm telling you some people don't just buy your simple pro-universal-healthcare argument wholesale, especially when you refuse to defend it against valid questions like this.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#254

Post by sykh »

fastball wrote: post #226
sykh wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our spending on healthcare is grossly and immorally inefficient. A change is needed. One reason for the ineffiency is that public welfare is subordinate to special interests. All universal healthcare systems in the world are cheaper on a per capita basis than the American system. A change is needed. I’m not advocating for more money. I’m advocating for a change in perspective by our leaders.

Just because something has worked for other countries does not mean it will work for the US.

Never said otherwise. I made the statement in response to the view that government run necessarily means inefficient. Clearly the converse is true. There are lots of examples.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#255

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

conanbatt wrote: post #196
sykh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The services could be worse but aren’t necessarily worse. It’s foolish to think that any government service is worse than a private one. Also, universal healthcare doesn’t necessarily mean government run.

It's foolish to believe the state is more efficient that private actors, that is just contrary to real life experience.

What's foolish is making statements like that when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Educate yourself.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#256

Post by grey-sunshine »

dagenleg wrote: post #142
announcerman wrote: post #65

Universal healthcare is not a silver bullet, in certain Eastern European Countries we pay a large amount of our salary in taxes so that we have universal healthcare and yet you still have to give "gifts" to every nurse and doctor that treats you unless you want the bare minimum treatment and care. Doctors can also intentionally botch surgeries if you fail to pay up. Not so much that it can be called malpraxis though.

Why countries specifically?

Happens in India too in the public sector.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#257

Post by [deleted] »

Pharylon wrote: post #73
austincheney wrote: post #51

When the issue of universal health care comes up with regards to US policy I often see those emotional arguments pulling on the heart strings. Unfortunately, this is a distraction. I know this sounds cold, but it comes down to money. Healthcare in America is expensive. The problems appear to be commonly identified by various forms of research and including things like pricing inefficiencies of drugs, malpractice insu…

I don't think emotional arguments are a distraction, they're the whole point. This is a moral issue. Other countries manage to have universal healthcare and it doesn't break the bank. In fact, they spend less per person. The fiscal argument is the distraction.

[deleted]

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#258

Post by monocasa »

chimeracoder wrote: post #157
monocasa wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The VA was a good system not too long ago, but the past couple decades has seen it get extremely underfunded in a starve the beast strategy. It used to be a black eye in the Republican's view of healthcare, but they sure fixed that.

> The VA was a good system not too long ago, but the past couple decades decades has seen it get extremely underfunded in a starve the beast strategy. It used to be a black eye in the Republican's view of healthcare, but they sure fixed that. While it's tempting to blame any failure of national healthcare on Republicans, this is simply not factually accurate. It's been at least two generations since the VA was anythi…

I mean, sure, the defunding started in the early 80s with Reagan, but we only started to see the effects of that in the past 20 years or so.

And sure, I blame the neoliberal third way Democrats as much as the Republicans. Their whole "let's move the party right and follow the Republicans" really muddies the waters here.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#259

Post by beagle3 »

fastball wrote: post #226
sykh wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our spending on healthcare is grossly and immorally inefficient. A change is needed. One reason for the ineffiency is that public welfare is subordinate to special interests. All universal healthcare systems in the world are cheaper on a per capita basis than the American system. A change is needed. I’m not advocating for more money. I’m advocating for a change in perspective by our leaders.

Just because something has worked for other countries does not mean it will work for the US.

That's true, but since there is an example (tens of them, actually) where it does work well, then the prior should be that it could and should work in the US, and if one thinks it wouldn't work in the US, it should come with an explanation.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#260

Post by aninhumer »

mac01021 wrote: post #188
slantedview wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact that most Americans don't know: We _ALREADY_ spend more than enough on healthcare as a nation to fully fund healthcare for everybody. It's just that, unlike in other countries, our current system routes that spending to various for profit entities that don't involve actually providing care. tldr; Lack of funding is not a legitimate argument against providing healthcare to Americans.

> We _ALREADY_ spend more than enough on healthcare as a nation to fully fund healthcare for everybody. I would like to see a study or article demonstrating this. Do you have any links?

The point I usually see is that the US government healthcare spending per capita is comparable that of other developed countries with universal healthcare.
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